M: With these things in mind it is proper to ask - Who or what acts when sinners are punished and killed? For example, when fire "went out from the LORD" and killed Nadab and Abihu, who or what acted to kill them? We both agree the fire did not act on its own. Please understand I'm not asking you to explain why they deserved to die. Obviously they are responsible for the fact they died. The question is - Who or what employed the fire that killed them?

T: I think the same principles were at work in these cases as laid out in the paragraphs I just quoted [GC88 36].

M: Here's an excerpt from the quote you posted, "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

In the Bible it says, "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

Ellen wrote, "God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. {RH, March 25, 1875 par. 2} "Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1} "A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

You seem to be suggesting the "fire" that "blazed out" from the "presence" of God in "the holy of holies" and "consumed" Nadab and Abihu in reality was employed by Satan. Is this what you believe Ellen had in mind? If so, doesn't that imply she believed Satan was standing beside God in the most holy place when he employed fire to kill them?

Do you know of even one passage where Ellen plainly says, God withdrew His protection and permitted Satan to employ fire to kill Nadab and Abihu?

T: We've discussed Nadab and Abihu at great length. To respond briefly, what I said is think the same principles articulated in GC 35-37 apply, where she speaks about how Israel destroyed itself by persistently resisting the Spirit of God, giving itself over to sin/Satan.

There are thousands of dangers from which God protects us constantly, by various means, including the Holy Spirit, holy angels, for example. We can be destroyed by natural causes, that God permits to happen, by evil beings (whether angelic or human) when God permits, or we can destroy ourselves by things we do (all of a sudden or over time). Destruction can be accidental, or planned.

The Destruction of Jerusalem explains in great detail how one such destruction took place. While the Bible uses language which clearly identifies God as the One responsible, the SOP draws away the curtain, and we see, despite the clear Biblical language apparently to the contrary, that it was not God who was responsible, but Satan. I believe many principles articulated here are general principles, and shouldn't be limited to Jerusalem. For example:

Quote:

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.

I think these principles apply to destruction by means of violent death that occurs, whether accidental or planned. Every such death comes about as the result of sin/Satan, and is not according to the plan of God. As Jesus explained, when urged to destroy His enemies with fire, He did not come to destroy but to save. Destruction is the work of "Apollyon," the destroyer. Violence/torture/cruelty/compelling power are not principles of God's government.

He doesn't hold a big stick over our heads, and say, "It's my way or the highway!" and smash us over the head if we don't do what He says. Rather, He warns us, as a kind, wise, heavenly Father, of the consequences of fooling setting aside His counsel.

1. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. In the OT, did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?

M: Yes, God turns the other cheek, goes the extra mile, and offers His other coat. Which begs the three questions listed above. What else can you tell us about Jesus that can help us understand the three actions named above?

T: I think it begs other questions.

Nadab and Abihu entered into the presence of God. There was very precise steps that needed to be taken in order to enter in. Nadab and Abihu did not take those steps and were in direct violation of God's commands. The question I ask is did God then flair out fire and "consume" them to punish them, or was this a direct consequence of their entering into the presence of God, the inevitable result, they would be destroyed. One could ask, what is the difference, either way, they are dead. To me it makes a big difference. In Nadab and Abihu's day, the presence of God was indicated by the Shekinah glory, the actual presence of God. Who can stand in this glory? Isaiah 33:14-15, the righteous. God had warned them not to come into His presence, not because He would then have to kill them, but because if they did, they would not survive. No one can see my face and life. See Exodus 33:20-23.

Ultimately however, it is the work of the devil that did kill them. A sanctuary had been created where by God could dwell with men. Nadab and Abihu willfully violated the precautions and violated the protections God had in place so he could dwell them men. They thus destroyed themselves.

Yes, I can give you a genetic reason why this happens, but for now will refrain. :-) I'll just say there is nothing arbitrary about it.

Do you think this light causes us to die similar to the way other forms of light causes us to die? For example, when Jesus returns, Ellen wrote, "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the [redeemed] righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.

Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 107-108)

Based on what you wrote above, I still do not know your answers to the following questions asked above:

1. You seem to be suggesting the "fire" that "blazed out" from the "presence" of God in "the holy of holies" and "consumed" Nadab and Abihu in reality was employed by Satan.

Is this what you believe Ellen had in mind?

2. If so, doesn't that imply she believed Satan was standing beside God in the most holy place when he employed fire to kill them?

3. Do you know of even one passage where Ellen plainly says, God withdrew His protection and permitted Satan to employ fire to kill Nadab and Abihu?

T:1. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. In the OT, did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?

M: Yes, God turns the other cheek, goes the extra mile, and offers His other coat. Which begs the three questions listed above. What else can you tell us about Jesus that can help us understand the three actions named above?

T: I think it begs other questions.

What other questions do you have in mind?

Also, it is obvious that the answer to the three questions listed above is - Yes! Do you agree? If not, why not?

3. Do you know of even one passage where Ellen plainly says, God withdrew His protection and permitted Satan to employ fire to kill Nadab and Abihu?

I'm not sure what you mean by "other forms of light causes us to die". Indeed, we need light to live.

That said, I take the 2 Thessalonians 2:8 statement for what it says. I think that a better statement in explaining this is in Great Controversy:


And this fits the genomic model. :-) Their nature is so debased, the glory of God consumes them. And this is where I think NJK and I parted company on the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life could impart life to the wicked, but that life would have been a life of misery, a life with a debased nature. So that should God have manifested Himself, tree or not, the sinner would have been destroyed. That this would have happened would not have been apparent at the start of sin. And if God had let the natural consequences proceed, the universe would have worshiped God out of fear. The Cross proved God right.

Electromagnetic radiation [EMR] is classified according to the frequency of its wave. In order of increasing frequency and decreasing wavelength, these are radio waves, microwaves, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays and gamma rays (see Electromagnetic spectrum). The eyes of various organisms sense a small and somewhat variable window of frequencies called the visible spectrum. Link

The visible spectrum is the portion of the electromagnetic spectrum that is visible to (can be detected by) the human eye. Electromagnetic radiation in this range of wavelengths is called visible light or simply light. A typical human eye will respond to wavelengths from about 390 to 750 nm.[1] In terms of frequency, this corresponds to a band in the vicinity of 400–790 THz. Link

MM, why do you do that? Why is it necessary to find a passage that specifically says such rather than finding general principles for all such things happening. I mean, I mean, that's kind of me like saying, find me one passage which states that God is going to directly burn kland if he turns away from God. Meaning, that if you can't present such a statement, then your belief is false. I find that.... can't really think of the word....

In the Bible it says, "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

Ellen wrote:

1. "God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. {RH, March 25, 1875 par. 2}

2. "Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1}

3. "A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

I find that.... can't really think of the word....