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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13209
04/22/05 05:02 PM
04/22/05 05:02 PM
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quote:
Satan has known all along that God is right and he is wrong. I cannot believe the Great Controversy is continuing to convince Satan that he is wrong. Do you have any support for your view?
1. Why didn't God simply destroy Satan the moment he rebelled?
2. If the holy angels, and the onlooking unfallen universe, are already convinced that the GC has been won, then what is God waiting for?
3. Why did Sister White say that the "angels" needed to see a fuller "contrast" between Christ and Satan before the principles of the GC could be correctly understood? How does the experience of the saved and unsaved, during the TOT, help the angels see this contrast more fully? What affect will it have on Satan?
4. If Satan is, and has been, convinced he deserves to die, if he has already bowed his knee and confessed that Jesus is Lord, if he is convinced that Jesus' way is the only right way, if he is convinced his way is wrong - why doesn't God destroy Satan right now? Why didn't He destroy him at the cross?
5. If the GC, at this point, has nothing to do with Satan, then why doesn't God destroy him now? Does God need Satan in order to teach us, to save us? What purpose does Satan serve now?
1. God didn't destroy Satan the moment he sinned because it would have been misunderstood as God destroying him rather than sin causing his death. In order that death could be seen as what it really is, something which sin causes, as opposed to something it is not, God killing the offender, Satan's existence was allowed to continue.
Had Satan been allowed to suffer the consequences of sin, his death would have been misunderstood, and beings would have followed God out of fear, which would have created an evil seed of doubt. "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe." (DA 764)
There are other reasons God did not destroy Satan, but I'll just go with this one for now.
2. I have answered the question that those who do not know are human beings. God is waiting for us, which inspiration makes clear in a number of places (e.g. 2 Pet. 3)
3. This was my question to you.
4. Satan will die when he comes face to face with his sin. This won't happen until the judgment. The judgment happens after everything is over. There are still decisions being made by human beings, so God allows the Great Controversy to continue for their sake.
5. This has been addressed above.
These are good questions, Mike, very good. I don't see how they can be answered in a way which explains the Great Controversy as being continued for Satan's benefit, or, perhaps better stated, to convince him that he is wrong. He already knows he is wrong. He has always known he was wrong, since the beginning. Back when he left heaven, God made it clear to him that he was wrong, and he understood that. It was when he sinned in the light of truth that he commited the unpardonable sin.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13210
04/22/05 08:09 PM
04/22/05 08:09 PM
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1. God didn’t destroy Satan the moment he sinned because the holy angels and unfallen beings of other worlds would not have been able to make the connection between his sin and God’s “strange act” (i.e., punishing and killing a created being). God has not been miraculously protecting Satan and preventing him from reaping the results of his sin and rebellion. Satan will not die, and probably cannot die, until the day God rains down fire upon him.
2. Unfallen, celestial beings are not convinced that the GC has already been won. It is still clearly going on. Human beings are not the only FMAs that are watching and learning from the GC. “Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy… [A]ngels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness.”
3. Satan, during the TOT, will be allowed to tempt mankind without restraints or limitations. When the 144,000 resist his temptations, and remain loyal to God, he will admit and confess that it is possible to obey the law, that true peace of mind depends on it. The witness of the 144,000 will also convince, beyond all shadow of doubt, the rest of the onlooking universe.
4. Satan is not convinced of anything. He is the ultimate insane person, a mad freak, who knows he is lost, but who thinks he will eventually win. God will not, cannot, punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire until he confesses the lordship of Jesus, until he testifies that he deserves to die, which he hasn’t done yet, and will not until after the Millennium. Notice the words "now" and "fully" in my last post.
5. No, God doesn’t need Satan to teach us or to save us. If Satan were dead and gone right now we would still have to labor to resist temptation. Temptations originate within our sinful nature, as well as without. But Satan is fulfilling a purpose, which is why God hasn’t destroyed him yet. The contrast between Jesus and Satan must be fully developed before God can punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire. And we are the laboratory, the battlefield, where the principles of Jesus and Satan will eventually be fully developed.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13211
04/24/05 06:11 AM
04/24/05 06:11 AM
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"1. God didn’t destroy Satan the moment he sinned because the holy angels and unfallen beings of other worlds would not have been able to make the connection between his sin and God’s “strange act” (i.e., punishing and killing a created being). God has not been miraculously protecting Satan and preventing him from reaping the results of his sin and rebellion. Satan will not die, and probably cannot die, until the day God rains down fire upon him." quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them........ The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107, 108)
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly. (Isa. 33:14, 15)
It is God who is the consuming fire, not some arbitrary thing or process. The righteous can abide in God's presence, and to them the light of His glory is life. To the wicked, the light of God's glory is a fire which destroys.
That which is God's strange act is to finally give the wicked up to the result of their choice. Although He cries out, "How can I give you up?" and "Why will you die?", eventually, if His grace is persistently rejected, this is what will happen.
This view of the judgment is entirely in harmony with God's character as it has been revealed in Jesus Christ.
"2. Unfallen, celestial beings are not convinced that the GC has already been won."
Even Satan knows he has lost, let alone the unfallen celestial beings. quote:
Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost. (DA 758)
"It is still clearly going on. Human beings are not the only FMAs that are watching and learning from the GC. “Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy… [A]ngels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness.”
I think this is the third time I'm asking you this: What are the unfallen angels learning?
"3. Satan, during the TOT, will be allowed to tempt mankind without restraints or limitations. When the 144,000 resist his temptations, and remain loyal to God, he will admit and confess that it is possible to obey the law, that true peace of mind depends on it. The witness of the 144,000 will also convince, beyond all shadow of doubt, the rest of the onlooking universe.
Convince them of what? That man can obey the law? They already know that; Christ has shown this is possible. They already are convinced that peace of mind depends on obedience to God's law. They are fully convinced of this and fully reconciled to God.
"4. Satan is not convinced of anything. He is the ultimate insane person, a mad freak, who knows he is lost, but who thinks he will eventually win. God will not, cannot, punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire until he confesses the lordship of Jesus, until he testifies that he deserves to die, which he hasn’t done yet, and will not until after the Millennium. Notice the words "now" and "fully" in my last post.
If Satan knows he's lost, surely the unfallen, celestial beings know that too.
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Note:
1) By a life of rebellion, Satan place himself so our of harmony with God that God becomes a consuming fire to him.
2) God's glory destroys him. (remember from above that God is a consuming fire to sin wherever it is found, and the light of His glory will destroy the wicked. Sinners will be destroyed when sin is destroyed if they cling to it)
3) If Satan had been allowed to suffer the results of his sin immediately (i.e. if God had allowed His glory to destroy him), those looking on would have misunderstood it, not realising that Satan's death was the result of sin. That is, they would have mistakently misunderstood what was happening, thinking that it was God who was doing this to him, rather than sin. In order to prevent this misunderstanding (along with other reasons) God permitted Satan's existence to continue. At the end of the Great Controversy, all will understand that it is sin which caused Satan's death, and not an arbitrary act of power of God. (see previous paragraph from DA 764)
"5. No, God doesn’t need Satan to teach us or to save us. If Satan were dead and gone right now we would still have to labor to resist temptation. Temptations originate within our sinful nature, as well as without. But Satan is fulfilling a purpose, which is why God hasn’t destroyed him yet. The contrast between Jesus and Satan must be fully developed before God can punish and destroy Satan in the lake of fire. And we are the laboratory, the battlefield, where the principles of Jesus and Satan will eventually be fully developed."
I agree with this, as long as it is understood that Satan's death will occur as "the inevitable result of sin" rather than as "an arbitrary act of power on the part of God." God's glory will result in Satan's death, because he has placed himself so out of harmony with God that to him God's presence will be a consuming fire.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13212
04/24/05 03:43 PM
04/24/05 03:43 PM
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Tom, can you cite any scriptural stories where God did not take an active role in punishing and destroying unrepentant sinners, where He simply allowed sin to run its course? Actions speak louder than words, and they help explain things that seem to be contradictory. For example, God sent water to destroy the Antediluvians, and He sent fire to destroy the Sodomites. Then, He inspired His prophets and apostles to explain that His behaviour in these circumstances illustrate how He plans to punish and destroy the unsaved at the end of time, in the lake of fire. Based on how God has dealt with rebellion in the past, and there are many other examples in the Bible, we are left with little doubt as to how He will punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire. There was nothing arbitrary or vindictive about the way God destroyed people in the past, therefore, we have no reason to believe that the way He plans to punish and destroy all the unsaved in the lake of fire, at the end of time, is anything but holy, just and righteous. During the outpouring of the 7 last plagues, while those who refused to receive the seal of God are writhing in pain and agony, the pure and holy angels, who are witnessing this terrible time of trouble and intense suffering, turn to behold the Lamb of God, clad in the vestments of vengeance and sitting upon His white horse, they are compelled to exclaim: “Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy… Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.” (Revelation 16:5-7 and 18:6-8) We must behold the Lamb of God at all times, whether He is forgiving the hideous acts of sinners, or whether He is punishing and destroying sinners who refused to repent of their hideous acts of sin. “Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost.” (DA 758) Yes, but Satan is also insane, that’s why he still believes he will win in the end. “… as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy… With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom.” (GC 663) There are no contradictions between these two insights. quote:
I think this is the third time I'm asking you this: What are the unfallen angels learning?
The “contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness”, as revealed in the saved and unsaved during the TOT.
quote:
Convince them of what? That man can obey the law? They already know that; Christ has shown this is possible. They already are convinced that peace of mind depends on obedience to God's law. They are fully convinced of this and fully reconciled to God.
Apparently not. How do you explain the “now” and “fully” words used in the GC quote I posted and highlighted above? “It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death.” (GC 668)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13213
04/24/05 05:10 PM
04/24/05 05:10 PM
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The following Scriptures bring out the principles that God's wrath is His giving up those who reject Him to the results of their choice. I'll follow this post with another one which expresses the same principle from Spirit of Prophesy quotes. quote:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 Kings 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13214
04/24/05 07:47 PM
04/24/05 07:47 PM
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There are so many SOP statements on this theme (that God's wrath is His giving people over to the results of their choice) that I can only post a very small pct. of these statements. quote:
Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." (RH 9/17/01)
The character revealed by Pharaoh is similar to that of all the impenitent. God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves. (YI 11/30/93)
Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. (GC 589)
The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen. (GC 28)
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35)
Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.(GC 37)
When God’s restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. (3MR 314)
God could not for a moment stay his hand, or man would faint and die. (DA 207)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13215
04/24/05 07:53 PM
04/24/05 07:53 PM
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Old Tom: Convince them of what? That man can obey the law? They already know that; Christ has shown this is possible. They already are convinced that peace of mind depends on obedience to God's law. They are fully convinced of this and fully reconciled to God.
Mike: Apparently not. How do you explain the “now” and “fully” words used in the GC quote I posted and highlighted above? “It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death.” (GC 668)
New and Improved Tom: "It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion." GC quote, 668.
This is obviously talking about the wicked. My question was directed towards the unfallen angels. What are the principles of the Great Controversy that *they* have left to learn? How does what the 144,000 do help them learn these things?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13216
04/25/05 02:37 AM
04/25/05 02:37 AM
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OP
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Tom, I cited the Flood and Sodom as examples of how God will deal with the unsaved in the lake of fire. Am I to assume, from the quotes you posted, that you believe God caused these two events by allowing sin to run its course? I do not dispute that God has employed various means and agencies to punish and destroy unrepentant sinners. But, does this mean God has never taken matters into His own hands?
2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Jude
1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13217
04/25/05 03:39 AM
04/25/05 03:39 AM
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I think the quotes I presented address you question, Mike, especially GC 589 and DA 207.
There's many, many more statements along the lines of the ones I gave. The general principle is that there is no life apart from God, and when one rejects God, one dies.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13218
04/25/05 11:40 AM
04/25/05 11:40 AM
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quote:
If you have some SOP quotes in mind which address this issue, please share them. I'm particularly interested in how and to whom (i.e. for whose benefit) the 144,000 vindicate God's character.
I've found no direct quotes, but I think from these quotes we could infer that the vindication of God's character in His church is not for the benefit of the world only, but of the whole universe:
"As Christ glorified the Father by the demonstration of his love, so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing to the world the riches of his grace. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of his people." {RH, May 19, 1904 par. 4}
"The purpose which God seeks to accomplish through His people today is the same that He desired to accomplish through Israel when He brought them forth out of Egypt. By beholding the goodness, the mercy, the justice, and the love of God revealed in the Church, the world is to have a representation of His character. And when the law of God is thus exemplified in the life, even the world will recognize the superiority of those who love and serve God above every other people on the face of the earth. The Lord has His eye upon every one of His people, He has His plans concerning each. It is His purpose that those who practice His holy precepts shall be a distinguished people. To the people of God today, as well as to ancient Israel, belong the words written by Moses through the Spirit of inspiration in Deut. 7:6, and 4:5-8. Even these words fail of reaching the greatness and the glory of God's purpose to be accomplished through His people. Not to this world only, but to the universe are we to make manifest the principles of His kingdom." {AUCR, June 1, 1900 par. 45}
"In the lives of God's people the truths of His word are to reveal their glory and excellence. Through His people Christ is to manifest His character and the principles of His kingdom. Satan seeks to counterwork the work of God, and he is constantly urging men to accept his principles. He represents the chosen people of God as a deluded people. He is an accuser of the brethren, and his accusing power is employed against those who work righteousness. The Lord desires through His people to answer Satan's charges by showing the results of obedience to right principles." {COL 296.4}
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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