PTI, but here's the passage in Romans 1:



How do you get from what Romans 1 says here to what you said?

The "however" above addresses points not dealt with in Romans 1:18-20. By the way, does Romans 1:18-20 assume once a believer always a believer? By "believer" I mean believe God exists.

Tom, please address 132074.

Romans one simply says that what is known of God is known to all because God has manifested Himself to them. I don't know how you're getting the idea that this doesn't universally apply. You have the idea that it only applies at some point in a person's life, but this isn't at all what Paul is saying.

Again, here's Paul:



Here's you:



These are very different thingst. What I'm asking is, how do you get from what Paul said to what you say? There must be some process of logic involved to get from point A (what Paul said) to point B (what you said). What's the logic?

Another text that comes to mind is in John where he says that Jesus Christ is the light the lightens everyone in the world. He *is* that light which *lightens*. Jesus Christ doesn't stop lighting, and God does not stop manifesting Himself to all. All are without excuse because of this (i.e. because the manifesting of Himself is constant, so that what can be known of God continues to be known).

We don't need Ellen White to know that there are people who deny God's existence. That people deny God's existence does not contradict Romans 1. This is the point I've been making all along, before Ellen White entered into the conversation.



You wrote of those "who refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of God." This is a misstatement. They don't deny the truth or validity of God, but the truth or validity of the statement (i.e. assertion; statement of a fact) that God exists.



Romans 1 says that all are without excuse because what can be know of God is known to them because God Himself has shown them of Himself. I'm sure Ellen White believed this to be true.



Satan has not manifest himself to others in the way God has. He could if he wanted to, but it serves his purposes to have people think he does not exist. This isn't the case for God.



??? Why do you think I think this?



??? Same question.



Apparently so. My point has been that all are without excuse because what can be known of God is known by them because God Himself has shown them.



Ellen White addresses why in the quotes you cited. One reason is that they hate the God that has been presented to them. They prefer to believe He does not exist than to believe that the God (e.g. one who tortures others with fire for bad deeds committed) presented to them exists.



The point I've been making is that one cannot do good works without the power of God. Therefore if they've been doing good works, it's because God was involved.

You have made statement to the contrary of this, asserting that they can do good works independently of God, despite the quotes from Ellen White which you yourself cited stating that we (human beings) cannot do good works without a power outside of ourselves, the context clearly referring to God.

I've made the following point:

1.If it is true that one cannot do good works apart from a power outside of oneself (which is the power of God).

2.And a person does good works.

3.It follows that such a person, doing good works, did so with the help of God.

You have disagreed with this, although this seems like very simple and straight-forward logic. I have repeatedly asked you to address this, but instead you've simply asked me more questions.

I'm asking you yet again to please address this point.



Group 1 doesn't exist. If one cannot do good works without a power outside of oneself, then the number of people doing good works independently, without God's help, is 0.



The difference is there are no members of group 1.



The SOP quote which you yourself cited says that one cannot do good works without a power outside of oneself, the context speaking of such power being God.



This isn't dealing with my question. Please re-read it.



This cannot be, because one cannot do good works without a power outside of oneself. Self is not a power outside of oneself.



It seems clear you're misapplying this statement. For one thing, you're not considering the context, which deals with how actions appear from the outside. For another, you're not considering the text which you yourself cited stating that one cannot do good works without power from outside of oneself.



If they are as filthy rags, they aren't good works.



Our disagreement involves two points.

1.One cannot do good works without a power outside of oneself.
2.All know of God because God Himself has shown them of Himself.

Just because the existence of God is always evident, it does not mean we always interpret the evidence as proof He is real. People who reject and resist Jesus often enough eventually "harden their heart" and "sear their conscience" beyond hope. They "did not like to retain God in their knowledge" and "changed the truth of God into a lie." Such souls have committed the unpardonable sin. They are incapable of repenting and God is, therefore, unable to pardon them. Nevertheless, they are without excuse.

When an atheists personally tells you, Tom, God does not exist, what do you, Tom, tell him?


Yes, we disagree. I believe there are people, atheists, who do not believe God exists. And, I believe they are doing good works, without help from God, when they feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

This isn't responsive to my question.

Paul said one thing. You said another. I'm asking by what logic you get from what Paul said to what you said.

If I believed the person didn't know that God existed, then I would be picking what they said over what Paul said. I believe what Paul said, that what can be know of God *is known by them* because God has manifested it to Him. I understand this is what God is saying. We have:

1."You (anyone) know of Me, because I have shown Myself to you." (this is God speaking)

2."I don't believe God exists" (some person speaking)

Who am I going to believe? I believe God.



The first point contradicts Romans 1, and the second the quote from the SOP you cited saying that one is dependent upon a power outside of oneself in order to good works.

I've been asking you for quite some regarding both of these, and don't know why you believe what you do as opposed to these statements by Paul and the SOP respectively.

I do not agree with your interpretation. I do not believe Paul meant for us to understand him to say, "Everyone knows God exists because God makes it clear to them every day of their life."