If God shows you something, you can deny it, but you know it's true. . . To “deny the existence of God� means just what it says. Deny (from Webster's) means “to declare untrue.�

Skepticism could not deny the existence of Eden while it stood just in sight, its entrance barred by watching angels. The order of creation, the object of the garden, the history of its two trees so closely connected with man's destiny, were undisputed facts. And the existence and supreme authority of God, the obligation of His law, were truths which men were slow to question while Adam was among them. {PP 84.1}

These sinful men [antediluvians] could not deny the existence of God; but they would have been glad to know that there was no God to witness their deeds and call them to account. They delighted to put him out of their minds. The children were not taught to fear and reverence their Maker. They grew up unrestrained in their desires, and destitute of principle or conscience. Their minds were absorbed in devising means to rival one another in pleasure and vice; and they neither looked nor cared for a heaven beyond this world. {BEcho, July 1, 1887 par. 6}

Another class Satan leads on still further, even to deny the existence of God. They can see no consistency in the character of the God of the Bible, if He will inflict horrible tortures upon a portion of the human family to all eternity. Therefore they deny the Bible and its Author and regard death as an eternal sleep. {EW 219.3}

Atheism and infidelity prevail in every land. Bold blasphemers stand forth in the earth, the house of God's own building, and deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot if their position is wrong. Behold the societies of infidels everywhere forming to devise means to spread their hellish poisons! See the papists plotting how to suppress the word of God, and to cover up the truth with the rubbish of error! {RH, May 4, 1886 par. 4}

None are in greater danger from the influence of evil spirits than those who, notwithstanding the direct and ample testimony of the Scriptures, deny the existence and agency of the devil and his angels. So long as we are ignorant of their wiles, they have almost inconceivable advantage; many give heed to their suggestions while they suppose themselves to be following the dictates of their own wisdom. This is why, as we approach the close of time, when Satan is to work with greatest power to deceive and destroy, he spreads everywhere the belief that he does not exist. It is his policy to conceal himself and his manner of working. {GC 516.2}

In the world there are false theories which deny the existence of Satan, or make him so hideous as to encourage doubt of his existence. The world has no just conception of Satan. He is not thought of as the prince of the world, the general of a vast rebellion, a being logical and philosophical, possessing a powerful intellect. But thus it is. The adversary of God and leader in the great controversy waged against the world's Redeemer, his deceptive powers have been sharpened by constant practice; and in the final crisis he will deceive to their own ruin those who do not now seek to understand his methods of working. {RH, July 16, 1901 par. 1}

M: Are you saying, Yes, people who "deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot if their position is wrong", and haven't committed the unpardonable sin, are more than capable of responding to the Holy Spirit and more than capable of receiving divine power to perform "genuinely good deeds"?

T: I haven't said anything about "more than capable" anywhere. I don't know if the hypothetical people you're speaking of have committed the unpardonable sin or not. Assuming they haven't, then they should be able to respond to the Holy Spirit.

M: If so, how do their works differ from that of the best of believers doing the same thing (feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy)?

T: If they are doing good works because they are responding to the Holy Spirit, I don't see why their works would differ.

The working of the Holy Spirit in his life shows that he is a partaker of the divine nature. Every soul thus worked by the Spirit of Christ receives so abundant a supply of the rich grace that, beholding his good works, the unbelieving world acknowledges that he is controlled and sustained by divine power, and is led to glorify God. {YRP 70.1}

True piety of heart is made manifest by good words and good works, and men see the works of those who love God, and they are led thereby to glorify God. The true Christian abounds in good works; he brings forth much fruit. He feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, visits the sick, and ministers to the afflicted. Christians take a heartfelt interest in the children that are about them, who, through the subtle temptations of the enemy, are ready to perish. {YRP 193.3}

Many have no faith in God and have lost confidence in man. But they appreciate acts of sympathy and helpfulness. As they see one with no inducement of earthly praise or compensation coming to their homes to minister to the sick, to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, and to comfort the sad, and ever tenderly pointing all to Him of whose love and pity the human worker is but the messenger--as they see this, their hearts are touched. Gratitude springs up; faith is kindled. They see that God cares for them and they are prepared to listen to the teaching of His word. {CH 388.4}

The followers of Christ are to labor as He did. We are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and comfort the suffering and afflicted. We are to minister to the despairing, and inspire hope in the hopeless. And to us also the promise will be fulfilled, "Thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward." Isaiah 58:8. The love of Christ, manifested in unselfish ministry, will be more effective in reforming the evildoer than will the sword or the court of justice. These are necessary to strike terror to the lawbreaker, but the loving missionary can do more than this. Often the heart will harden under reproof; but it will melt under the love of Christ. The missionary cannot only relieve physical maladies, but he can lead the sinner to the Great Physician, who can cleanse the soul from the leprosy of sin. Through His servants, God designs that the sick, the unfortunate, those possessed of evil spirits, shall hear His voice. Through His human agencies He desires to be a Comforter such as the world knows not. {DA 350.4}

M: Also, what about people who "deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot if their position is wrong", and who have committed the unpardonable sin, and who work beside the best of believers feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy - How would you describe their works (evil, selfish, good, holy, etc)?

T: Since to do good works, one needs a power outside of ones (from the SOP quote), if they are not depending upon a power outside of themselves, then it would follow they are not doing good works, right?

M: And, in practical terms (plopping food on the plates of the poor and needy as they rush by the assembly line), how do their smiles and works differ from that of the best of believers doing the same thing?

T: Let's see if we agree on the previous point. Here's the previous point.

1.The SOP quote says that to do good works, one needs a power outside of oneself.
2.In your hypothetical question, the people have committed the unpardonable sin, so are not depending upon a power outside of themselves.
3.Therefore they are not doing good works, as per the SOP quote.

Assuming we agree on this, you're now asking for detail as to how their works are different? This is your question? And you think it may have something to do with their smiles?

T:If God shows you something, you can deny it, but you know it's true. . . To “deny the existence of God� means just what it says. Deny (from Webster's) means “to declare untrue.�

M:You seem to be saying Ellen’s use of the phrase “deny the existence of God� must be interpreted to mean they believe that God, unlike the tooth fairy, is a real person, that He does indeed exist.

Please compare Ellen’s use of the phrase “deny the existence of� in the following passages:

Does “deny the existence of� have the same meaning when she uses it in the context of Eden and Satan as it does when she uses it in the context of God?

T: I haven't said anything about "more than capable" anywhere. I don't know if the hypothetical people you're speaking of have committed the unpardonable sin or not. Assuming they haven't, then they should be able to respond to the Holy Spirit.

M:Do you disagree with the use of the phrase “more than capable� in the context above?

If so, why?

Do you agree the people specified above “haven’t committed the unpardonable sin�?

By the way, they are not “hypothetical people�. They are real people. I’ve worked with them many times in the past.

M: If so, how do their works differ from that of the best of believers doing the same thing (feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy)?

T: If they are doing good works because they are responding to the Holy Spirit, I don't see why their works would differ.

What do you mean by “their good works� do not differ?

Ellen wrote:...

With these insights in mind, do you think the origin and source of their good works is the same?

Do think there is no difference between their good works?

T: Since to do good works, one needs a power outside of ones (from the SOP quote), if they are not depending upon a power outside of themselves, then it would follow they are not doing good works, right?

So, you describe their works as “not good works�? How does this description differ from “evil works�?

M: And, in practical terms (plopping food on the plates of the poor and needy as they rush by the assembly line), how do their smiles and works differ from that of the best of believers doing the same thing?

T: Let's see if we agree on the previous point. Here's the previous point.

1.The SOP quote says that to do good works, one needs a power outside of oneself.
2.In your hypothetical question, the people have committed the unpardonable sin, so are not depending upon a power outside of themselves.
3.Therefore they are not doing good works, as per the SOP quote.

Assuming we agree on this, you're now asking for detail as to how their works are different? This is your question? And you think it may have something to do with their smiles?

No, we do not agree. I believe they are capable of performing good works. Plopping food on the plates of the poor and needy is doing good works.

M: Does “deny the existence of� have the same meaning when she uses it in the context of Eden and Satan as it does when she uses it in the context of God?

T: We need to take into account that, according to Romans 1, all know of God because what can be know of God was shown to them by God. This doesn't apply to Eden or Satan or the tooth fairy.

M: Are you saying, Yes, people who "deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot if their position is wrong", and haven't committed the unpardonable sin, are more than capable of responding to the Holy Spirit and more than capable of receiving divine power to perform "genuinely good deeds"?

T: I don't know if the hypothetical people you're speaking of have committed the unpardonable sin or not.

M: Do you agree the people specified above “haven’t committed the unpardonable sin�?

T: You can make up your assumptions, and I'll comment accordingly.

Ellen wrote:


M: With these insights in mind, do you think the origin and source of their good works is the same?

T: I said "if they are doing good works because they are responding to the Holy Spirit ..." which means the origin of their works is the Holy Spirit. So how could the origin and source be different if the origin and source is the Holy Spirit?

people who "deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot

Kland, Romans 1 makes it clear no one can excuse "denying the existence of God."

M: Does “deny the existence of� have the same meaning when she uses it in the context of Eden and Satan as it does when she uses it in the context of God?

T: We need to take into account that, according to Romans 1, all know of God because what can be know of God was shown to them by God. This doesn't apply to Eden or Satan or the tooth fairy.

M:In the passages I posted, Ellen used the phrases “deny the existence of Eden� and “deny the existence of Satan�. Do these phrases mean something different than “deny the existence of God�? If so, why?

Above you said, “To ‘deny the existence of God’ means ‘to declare untrue.’�

It also means “to refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of.�

What exactly do you think Ellen meant when she implied there are people who declare the existence of God to be untrue, who refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of God?

The people I specified “haven’t committed the unpardonable sin�. Do you agree that’s how I described them above?

In the case of (1) people who “deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot if their position is wrong� and the (2) people Ellen described in the passages above working side-by-side feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy, it sounds like you’re saying there is no difference between the two kinds of people so far as the origin and source of their good works.

However, what about the fact the second (2) group of people have experienced the miracle of rebirth and are partaking of the divine nature? “The working of the Holy Spirit in his life shows that he is a partaker of the divine nature. Every soul thus worked by the Spirit of Christ . . . is controlled and sustained by divine power, and is led to glorify God.� Here Ellen is describing the origin and source of their good works (born again heart + Holy Spirit = good works). Do you think she believed the same thing is true of the first (1) group of people?

T: Since to do good works, one needs a power outside of ones (from the SOP quote), if they are not depending upon a power outside of themselves, then it would follow they are not doing good works, right?

M: What exactly do you think Ellen meant when she implied there are people who declare the existence of God to be untrue, who refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of God?

T: We don't need Ellen White to know that there are people who deny the existence of God. What this means is to deny that God exists; to declare that untrue; to refuse to accept the truth of validity of that statement. It's not the truth or validity of God that's being denied, but the truth or validity of the statement that God exists that's being denied.

Atheism and infidelity prevail in every land. Bold blasphemers stand forth in the earth, the house of God's own building, and deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot if their position is wrong. {RH, May 4, 1886 par. 4}

M: In the case of (1) people who “deny the existence of the Creator, and challenge the God of heaven to strike them dead on the spot if their position is wrong� and the (2) people Ellen described in the passages above working side-by-side feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy, it sounds like you’re saying there is no difference between the two kinds of people so far as the origin and source of their good works.

T: I made no comment regarding this.

M: However, what about the fact the second (2) group of people have experienced the miracle of rebirth and are partaking of the divine nature? “The working of the Holy Spirit in his life shows that he is a partaker of the divine nature. Every soul thus worked by the Spirit of Christ . . . is controlled and sustained by divine power, and is led to glorify God.� Here Ellen is describing the origin and source of their good works (born again heart + Holy Spirit = good works). Do you think she believed the same thing is true of the first (1) group of people?

T: She didn't say born again heart + Holy Spirit = good works. That would imply that no one born again could do good works. That doesn't agree with what you've been saying, though, right? At least, I've been understanding you to say that people who don't believe in God can do good works of themselves, without God's assistance. So there are three positions here:

1.Anyone can do good works, whether believing in God or not, and they can do so without God's assistance.

2.Anyone who responds to the Holy Spirit can do good works.

3.Born again + Holy Spirit = good works. This means to do good works one must be born again, and God's assistance must be involved.

I've understood you to be asserting 1. It sounds like you believe EGW was asserting 3. I've been asserting 2.

T: Also, I asked you some questions in my previous post, to which you responded with questions. I asked you to answer my question. You didn't do so. You've asked me a lot of questions here, and I've answered them. Please answer my questions as well. In particular, here's the question I asked you to answer: “Since to do good works, one needs a power outside of ones (from the SOP quote), if they are not depending upon a power outside of themselves, then it would follow they are not doing good works, right?�

M: Kland, Romans 1 makes it clear no one can excuse "denying the existence of God."

K: Sorry, I must have missed where you agreed with that. Glad to hear it!