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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13219
04/26/05 02:29 AM
04/26/05 02:29 AM
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OP
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I appreciate the fact you emphasize the goodness of God. But the wrath of God is love, too. I'm surprised to learn, though, that you believe Satan caused water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians, and that Satan caused fire to punish and destroy the Sodomites. I guess we will know for sure when we get to heaven and watch the rerun.
I agree with Rosangela, the insights and information contained in the Bible and the SOP infer and imply that the holy angels and the rest of the inhabitants of God's unfallen universe have more to learn regarding the issues related to the great controversy before the "contrast" between Christ and Satan is clear. How it will affect them, or change them, once they see the "contrtast" is not as obvious, but it sure seems to have something to do with the way the saved and the unsaved react and respond to the plagues during the TOT. But it doesn't seem to be completely settled until after the Millennium (according to the "now" and "fully" quotes posted above).
DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13220
04/27/05 06:03 PM
04/27/05 06:03 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"Tom, I appreciate the fact you emphasize the goodness of God. But the wrath of God is love, too. I'm surprised to learn, though, that you believe Satan caused water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians, and that Satan caused fire to punish and destroy the Sodomites. I guess we will know for sure when we get to heaven and watch the rerun."
You seem to have gotten off the track. We weren't talking about the flood or Sodom and Gemorrah (at least I wasn't.) You asked for statements regarding God's giving sinners over to the result of their sins, so I provided over a half dozen from Scripture, and about that many from the Spirit of Prophesy (many more could be provided). As far as I am aware, you have not dealt with a single one of these statements (although you asked for them), but instead are trying to change the subject. I'm not interested in discussing the change of subject. You asked for quotes, and I provided them.
"I agree with Rosangela, the insights and information contained in the Bible and the SOP infer and imply that the holy angels and the rest of the inhabitants of God's unfallen universe have more to learn regarding the issues related to the great controversy before the "contrast" between Christ and Satan is clear. How it will affect them, or change them, once they see the "contrtast" is not as obvious, but it sure seems to have something to do with the way the saved and the unsaved react and respond to the plagues during the TOT. But it doesn't seem to be completely settled until after the Millennium (according to the "now" and "fully" quotes posted above)."
I agree that there is something to learn, and have not disputed that. I have asked what it is that they have to learn, and disagreed with some of the answers you were providing for reasons I gave. If you say you don't know, then I can't very well disagree with that.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13221
04/27/05 06:41 PM
04/27/05 06:41 PM
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OP
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quote:
Here's what I posted:
I do not dispute that God has employed various means and agencies to punish and destroy unrepentant sinners. But, does this mean God has never taken matters into His own hands?
Yes, God has given Satan permission to wreak havoc, and Satan has dutifully obeyed God. I acknowledge this fact. But you seem to be unwilling to admit that God has also taken matters into His own hands (i.e., the Flood and Sodom), and that inspired authors have cited these “strange acts” as examples of how God will punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire.
Holy angels rejoice and praise God for punishing and destroying the unsaved during the outpouring of the 7 last plagues, and for raining fire down upon the resurrected unsaved and evil angels after the Millennium. Who am I to hold my peace? to hold my tongue from rejoicing with them? to praise God for His “his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.”
DA 761
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
This choice is what will help holy angels see the “contrast” that is necessary for them to see in order to “understand all that is involved in the great controversy.” The choice she is referring to is, I assume, the choice to “choose whom he will serve” during the MOB crisis. I realize you disagree with this insight, but it’s what makes sense to me.
Why do you think Satan hasn’t bowed his knee and confessed his guilt? Why do you think he hasn’t admitted that Jesus is Lord, and that he deserves to die in the lake of fire? What do you think it will take to motivate and inspire him to voluntarily make these confessions?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13222
04/28/05 02:35 AM
04/28/05 02:35 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Yes, God has given Satan permission to wreak havoc, and Satan has dutifully obeyed God.
"Satan has dutifully obeyed God." What does this mean? Do you think it is God's will that children are abused, people are tortured and killed?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13223
04/28/05 02:39 AM
04/28/05 02:39 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding God's wrath, I presented many Scriptures which show that God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their choices. Do you agree that the Scriptures I presented give this view? If so, then it would not be correct to see God's wrath as something which God does to people, would it? (other than in the sense that He departs from them and leaves them to the results of their choices). For your convenience, I'll repost the texts. quote:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 Kings 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19: Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13224
04/28/05 11:34 AM
04/28/05 11:34 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
I'm surprised to learn, though, that you believe Satan caused water to punish and destroy the Antediluvians...
How could this be possible?
As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power (PP 99, 100).
Thus, Satan
1) Did not desire the antidiluvians to die, but to live, to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven.
2) Was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, and feared for his own existence.
3) Uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty
So it's clear he didn't cause the flood.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13225
04/28/05 01:28 PM
04/28/05 01:28 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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How did the flood get into this discussion? Here is what I wrote: quote:
You seem to have gotten off the track. We weren't talking about the flood or Sodom and Gemorrah (at least I wasn't.)
If you guys want to talk about the flood, please start a new thread.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13226
04/28/05 08:41 PM
04/28/05 08:41 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
"Satan has dutifully obeyed God." What does this mean? Do you think it is God's will that children are abused, people are tortured and killed?
Job comes to mind. God stipulated the parameters, and Satan complied perfectly. And, how do you explain this famous quote:
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13227
04/28/05 08:48 PM
04/28/05 08:48 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, I agree that God has used many and various means and methods to punish and destroy unsaved sinners. In some cases He simply withholds His divine protection and terrible things happen. In some cases He commands holy angels to cause death and destruction. In some cases He permits evil angels to spread desolation everywhere. In the end, however, God will take matters into His own hands. He will rain down fire and brimstone upon the unsaved. As we behold the wrath of God, the wrath of the Lamb, we are, along with the holy angels, compelled to praise His holy name.
Isaiah
13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13228
04/28/05 09:09 PM
04/28/05 09:09 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, on page one I posted the following: quote:
Tom, can you cite any scriptural stories where God did not take an active role in punishing and destroying unrepentant sinners, where He simply allowed sin to run its course? Actions speak louder than words, and they help explain things that seem to be contradictory. For example, God sent water to destroy the Antediluvians, and He sent fire to destroy the Sodomites. Then, He inspired His prophets and apostles to explain that His behaviour in these circumstances illustrate how He plans to punish and destroy the unsaved at the end of time, in the lake of fire.
Based on how God has dealt with rebellion in the past, and there are many other examples in the Bible, we are left with little doubt as to how He will punish and destroy the unsaved in the lake of fire. There was nothing arbitrary or vindictive about the way God destroyed people in the past, therefore, we have no reason to believe that the way He plans to punish and destroy all the unsaved in the lake of fire, at the end of time, is anything but holy, just and righteous.
Then, you posted a bunch of quotes to prove that God doesn't punish or destroy unsaved sinners by killing them. You maintain that God simply allows people to reap what they have sown. In response to those posts I posted the following:
quote:
Tom, I cited the Flood and Sodom as examples of how God will deal with the unsaved in the lake of fire. Am I to assume, from the quotes you posted, that you believe God caused these two events by allowing sin to run its course? I do not dispute that God has employed various means and agencies to punish and destroy unrepentant sinners. But, does this mean God has never taken matters into His own hands?
You reaffirmed your position that God doesn't kill unsaved people, but that rather He simply gives them over to reap the results of their sins. Then, Rosangela provided evidence to the contrary, so you pleaded with us to start a new thread. You've already taken the time to prove that God didn't cause the Flood, or the fires of Sodom, so please post the quotes that refute what Sister White said about it.
This isn't off track. Beholding the wrath of God is as much a part of it as anything else. The wrath of God is love. Angels beheld the wrath of God and praised Him. Can we do less?
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