kland,

Do you call it "coerced" when a parent disciplines a child? Is it "coerced" when someone is sentenced to capital punishment?

We are all already thus sentenced, as sinners. We are not, however, "coerced," as we have the option of choosing to accept Christ's free offer of salvation. It is optional. That is the point. If we do not choose life, however, God will destroy us. The destruction, having been avoidable, cannot properly be called either "force" or "coercion."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So is the main problem with sin is that God runs out of patience, and then has to use force to execute judgment? Are the wages of sin execution by God, or does sin pay its wage? (Romans 6:23). Or is it when sin is full grown, you get executed, or when sin is full grown, it brings forth death? (James 1:15)

APL,

Sure, I will clarify that. In fact, the word "shift" is more suitable there. Basically, Tom has taken the quote which speaks of Jesus' "life" and "character" and applied those terms to His "earthly ministry." But Mrs. White did not use the term "earthly ministry" anywhere in connection with this statement.

Two points of clarification here:

1) Would Mrs. White have held the belief that Jesus only lived on this earth, never before? I do not believe so. Mrs. White speaks of Jesus just as the Bible does--the one who was the Creator and originator of all life. He was the Source of life. His "life," in fact, has meaning far beyond an earthly existence or ministry. "I am the way, the truth, and the life," He says. "He that hath the Son, hath life." To have Jesus is to have life everlasting. (See John 3:36.)

2. Is there anything about Jesus' character that was somehow new or different during His "earthly ministry?" If this were the case, how does one interpret Malachi 3:6? God's law is a reflection of His character. His law is unchanging, therefore His character must also be unchanging. His character must certainly have been the same during His "earthly ministry," as at the times when He walked with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, and communed with Moses.

To transfer one's thoughts of Jesus' character to thoughts of His earthly ministry may seem benign, but in the transfer, a broader picture is given up. Something is lost. It was this shift or change of concept that I was trying to address in my earlier comments.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I think those statements answer your question.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Being quite familiar with your position against capital punishment, kland, I am not surprise that you have seen completely red when you read it, and as a result, as customary, just don’t bother to think things through, but make “cute”, curt and knee-jerk, vacuous/mindless retorts. Notwithstanding the added expenditure of my time, simply for the record, I’ll (where applicable) do this basic/logical thinking for you:



-I spoke of the death of up to ca. 25 million Russians in death. While it can be argued, though faintly, that Germany had a just war in their attempt to regain the (Germanic) lands that were removed from them from earlier wars, their, even deceptive/deal-breaking, attempt to invade and take over the land of Russia, and that because it had many of the various natural and mineral resources that they needed was a “war crime” as an “unjust war” and thus the resulting death of 25 million Russians (with ca. 14 million being civilians deaths) were themselves murderous acts by the Nazis.

-The Holocausts, just as an act against non-combatants and civilians, let alone its genocidal reasons was also a national and war crime.

-The Nuclear Bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, targeting civilian cities, whose “crime” was to have war manufacturing plants with civilians working there, was a (still unprosecuted) War Crime by the United States.

-Communist Leaders (e.g, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot) starving parts of their population and/or otherwise murdering them were crimes.

-The 1994 genoicide in Rwanda was a crime.

-The slaughter in Sudan and the Darfur Region was a crime.

-Legalized and/or committed 65,000,000+ million abortions per year are individual and national crimes.

Capital Punishment, by its inherent legal definition and deliberate judicial process is not, when rightly adjudged, a crime.

Also, God could have intervened to supernaturally stopped these, however, especially as there were quite feasible world powers that could have done this intervention, or should have refrained from their actions, but chose not to, God allowed this man-made disaster to occur indeed just like He allows many, if not most/all naturally forming disasters to occur.

I also Theologically understand that in this GC, God limits His supernatural interventions and the scope of them, so as not to give the Devil a justified opportunity to similarly, adversely intervene in the “natural” and freely chosen course life of man, and also of naturally developing nature.



To answer your question: ‘No I would not say that’, and that is neither what I had said!
God created this mostly leisure full and painfree life, as it will be in Heaven, for people who would be and remain sinless. So he is not responsible when sinful man took this blessing and turned it into an opportunity to dive headlong into unrestraint evil pursuits! What’s so hard to see here?!?



Yes. Indeed. When you are dealing with a person/people who do not care about the life of others and threaten to, or have gratuitously snuffed the lives of others out, then Capital Punishment, and when applicable in its War/Military form, is indeed needed, as prescribed by God (e.g., Gen 9:6, 7).

The fear of the Second Coming, as well as other “promised” judgements of God in the Bible is merely to mercifully serve as an beginning step for the sinner to seek to get acquainted with this God that he has not and cannot see. On the flip side, when judiciously manifested, it serves to justly right some key GC wrongs.

Yes Green - the wrath of God - when their cup is full, they will receive the wrath of God. Which is what? See Romans 1. And Deuteronomy 31:17, 18. And Jeremiah 33:5. And 2 Chronicles 29:6, 8. And 2 Kings 17:17-20. And Isaiah 57:17. And 1 Kings 14:15, 16.

And read EGW in Signs of the Times where she specifically talks about Christ's ministry at His first Advent here: January 20, 1890 God Made Manifest in Christ.

Again - Tom's statements are up-healed. No there is nothing new about God's character. But to this point is had been mis-interpreted. Read the whole article.

1. What factors does God weigh when choosing to allow things to play out the way they do?

2. Is God free to allow or disallow things like N&A being burned alive and the two bands of fifty being burned alive?

3. Or, are His hands tied?

4. Is Satan free to do as he pleases without limits?

5. Did Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), choose to allow things like ungodly people being burned alive?

Why did God give in to Moses? Ellen wrote:


This doesn't sound to me as though Moses failed the test or that God truly wanted to start over with Moses and his descendants.


Do you agree with my summary of your view?

It sounds as though you are saying Moses forced God into a position of commanding godly people to kill ungodly in battle and though the execution of capital punishment.

Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly in battle or through capital punishment?


You believe Jesus was willing to think and behave like a pagan god in order to gain the trust and respect of the Jews long enough to wean them off such ungodly expectations.

Do you believe anything else about it?

It’s quite telling to me that in none of the SOP examples you have cited is “killing” ever addressed. You have to injected that notion in these passages. As I have stated before, Jesus had a chance to completely do away with Capital Punishment in the episode of the woman caught in adultery, however He rather told the men to indeed execute this punishment, however only if they themselves were (currently(?)) without sin.

So it seems to me that Jesus did not do away with the Capital Punishment instruction in the OT, but as He did with all other laws, elevated it to the righteous level that it should be on and that was that, those who were guilty of similar and other capital sins, or even lesser, but cherished sins, were in no position to effectuate this judgement. Hypocritically doings so had never been part of God’s will.

In the distinct case of murder, most people can truthfully say that they are without that sin, and as stated in Gen 9:6, 7 that is probably the most basic justification for Capital Punishment. Still Jesus’ honoring of the law shows that if someone is harboring hatred in their heart, they are equivalently guilty of murder. So they would be unfit to carry out that punishment. That similarly is a major reason why most people today remain on death row for years, even decades before being executed and why this is increasingly done as humanely as possible. So that no element of revenge, spitefulness and injustice will be added to this judicial process. Interestingly enough, people were stoned to death in God’s Israel apparently so that not a it could justly be a collective judgement (i.e., expressing the disapproval of the Israel society as a whole and not only one person) and thus also so that not a single person would unduly be ‘blamed”/feel guilty for having caused the death of that guilty and deservingly executed person.