Would "in our time" be relevant?

Did they agree with you when you made it clear to them that they in reality believe God does indeed exist and that they know they are without excuse for refusing to give God thanks and glory?


How does God make Himself known to your atheist friends? Please be specific. Thank you.


I believe people can and do experience the miracle of rebirth, receive a new heart, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature, and perform good works before they complete the process of converting to obeying "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. For example, most born-again believers break the Sabbath ignorantly. However, no truly born-again believer can violate one of the last six commandments without realizing it.


Ellen wrote:


You seem to be saying atheists, who perform good works, do so by the enabling power of God. Whereas, Ellen clearly says all such people are polished instruments in the hands of Satan. I realize you believe there is distinct, significant difference between the appearance of good works and actual good works. Please explain the practical difference. Thank you. I understand the spiritual difference.

Tom and I do not agree on Rom 1:18-21. He believes everyone is convinced, every minute of every day, that not only does God exist but that they also know they are without excuse for refusing to give Him glory and thanks.


I believe it means God has made it possible for anyone and everyone to know the Father through nature and Jesus. Ellen also wrote:

You asked me how I would witness to an atheist. Did you read what I wrote?



Romans 1 explains this. I haven't said anything other than what Paul said in our discussion.



Why not? This sounds like putting the cart before the horse. I believe is a person is converted first, and then the Holy Spirit brings things to that person's attention that need to be worked on. You're saying a person has to perfectly obey all the last six commandments before they can be converted. How is this possible?



I haven't said anything about atheists performing good works. You seem to keep wanting to put words in my mouth.

What I said is what the EGW quote you cited said, which is that we are dependent upon a power outside of ourselves to good works.

You are the one who has spoken of atheists doing good works.



I made no comment regarding this. I said that EGW quote you cited said, which is that we are dependent upon a power outside of ourselves to good works.



You quoted a snippet from Ellen White which says that a selfish heart can perform generous actions. You argued from this that my assertion that a person cannot perform good works apart from the help of God is incorrect. I disagreed with this, as, for one thing, it would contradict the other quote which says that one cannot do good works apart from a power outside of oneself.

I also pointed out that the context made clear this was dealing with how one's works appear from the outside.

These are what my comments were addressing.

I also said if a person did good works because they were responding to the Holy Spirit, there shouldn't be a difference in the source or origin of the good works, comparing one person responding to the Holy Spirit to another.

Regarding the difference between apparent good works and actual good works, the practical difference is that in one case good works exist, and in the other case they don't.

Where did I say this? I've just been saying what Paul said. Over and over again I've been doing this. I don't understand why you don't just quote what Paul said in reference to what I said. Why change it? I think what Paul said in the Romans 1 passage is fine and clear. I don't see any need to add to it, or take away from it.

This should be addressed to MM. We've discussed this in the past, and I also used Luther as an example to talk about.

My response to your comment above should make it clear I believe people like Luther, who ignorantly violate the law of God, experience rebirth and good works while abiding in Jesus. But we digress. The real question here is - Why do we consider it good works when the best of believers help feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy but consider it "filthy rags" when atheists, who have committed the unpardonable sin, perform the exact same good works?

Do you think Paul's comment should be interpreted to mean God continually makes Himself known to everyone at all times so that no one can excuse refusing to honor and glorify Him? Or, do you agree with me?

Your comment wasn’t clear to me. I’m asking for clarification. Clearly you believe they know God is real and that they are obligated to honor and glorify Him. You also believe they are lying when they claim to believe God is not real. Do you point this out to them? If not, why not?

Also, what do you tell them when they pointedly, emphatically tell you God does not exist, that He is just as unreal as the tooth fairy? You didn’t answer this question the last time I asked it.


Paul specifically described people “who hold the truth in unrighteousness . . . knowing the judgment of God . . . did not like to retain God in their knowledge . . . and changed the truth of God into a lie.” Do you believe Paul is here describing the atheists you witnessed to at college? That is, did they “hold the truth in unrighteousness”? Were they aware of the “judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death”? If so, when and how did they obtain such knowledge? Did they, as Paul said, conclude God is real after carefully examining “the things that are made”?


Please bear in mind the difference between experiencing rebirth and converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. We are conceived and born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments. No one is ignorant of the fact it is terribly wrong to dishonor their parents, murder, fornicate, steal, lie, or ignorant of the fact coveting causes unrest and unhappiness. People who experience rebirth are empowered to live in harmony with what everyone knows naturally is right. Nevertheless, there are specific truths we do not know instinctively, truths we must discover through Bible study and prayer. The first four commandments, for example, are not known naturally.


You have made it abundantly clear you believe anyone who performs “good works” are able to do so through a combination of human and divine powers. If what you believe is true, it implies God works through unholy, unsanctified human faculties to perform “good works.” I believe this is impossible. I believe people must first experience rebirth, which, among many things, results in sanctified human faculties, which, when combined with divine power, enables them to perform sanctified good works which honor and glorify God. Ellen wrote:


“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.“ Again, I believe it is impossible for Jesus to work through unholy, unsanctified, unregenerate human faculties “to will and to do of his good pleasure.” You seem to be saying, Yes, He can and does.


“Many a man of cultured intellect and pleasant manners, who would not stoop to what is commonly regarded as an immoral act, is but a polished instrument in the hands of Satan.” You seem to be saying Ellen intended for us to take her comment (in the quote you’re referring to) to mean unconverted, unbelievers (like people in the quote above) perform good works by combining sinful human faculties and divine power. Is this what you believe?


Do you believe Jesus works through unholy, unsanctified, unregenerate human faculties “to will and to do of his good pleasure”?


Do you believe feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy qualify as “good works” only when performed by people whose human faculties have been renewed and sanctified and through whom Jesus works “to will and to do of his good pleasure”? Or, do you believe the same things performed by people whose human faculties are unholy, unsanctified, and unregenerate also qualify as “good works”?

Are they same good works?