M: Tom, does God work through unholy, unsanctified, unregenerate human faculties “to will and to do of his good pleasure"?

T: I haven't said anything about this. I've been wanting to deal with the two issues I mentioned first. I said after that I'd be happy to come back to this question.

M: Are unholy, unsanctified, unregenerate sinners capable of reading "the creation of the world" aright, and, based solely on their observations of nature, arrive at the "truth", including believing God is real, and then end up "holding the truth in unrighteousness" and "knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death"?

T: According to Romans 1, all are without excuse, because the things of God are known, His invisible power being displayed, etc., because God has shown them. I think the emphasis needs to be put on God here. God is known to all because of what God has done. It has to be that way. Nobody, whether sanctified or not, can know of God by their own actions. It has to be God revealing Himself to others.

M: You wrote, "I still don't understand why you think what Paul says means that a person, at some point in their life, believed that God existed. I've pointed out several times that the grammar does not agree with this." Here's the context of Paul's comment: [omitted by Tom] Paul is talking about the following specific people:

1) the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth
2) to the Jew first, and also to the Greek
3) for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith
4) the just shall live by faith
5) who hold the truth in unrighteousness
6) that which may be known of God is manifest in them
7) for God hath showed it unto them
8) for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen
9) being understood by the things that are made
10) even his eternal power and Godhead
11) they are without excuse
12) they knew God
13) they glorified him not as God
14) neither were thankful
15) changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things
16) they did not like to retain God in their knowledge
17) who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator
18) who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them
19) wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness and unrighteousness

M: I hear you saying this describes everyone everywhere. I disagree.

T: You still haven't addressed my question. First I'll restate my position. Then I'll restate my question, again. My position is that according to Romans 1, all are without excuse because what can be known of God is known by all, because of what it says in Romans 1. I won't repeat it, as it's right there. My question is why you think Paul meant "at some point in their life" when he didn't say this, nor imply it. Well, your seeing an implication somewhere, you must be, to say what you're saying, but I don't see it. Why do you think Paul's thinking was "at some point in their life," as opposed to meaning in a general sense, as he wrote?

T: Please respond to the other issue as well. I'll repeat it for your convenience. You were asserting they were doing good works, contrary to what I was asserting. Then you cited an EGW quote agreeing with what I was asserting. This is what has been confusing to me. So are you retracting what you said before? I don't know what's going on here. What I said was that if anyone does good works, it is because God was helping them. You disagreed with this, and said they could do good works apart from God's help. Then you quoted a statement from the SOP saying that man cannot do good works apart from an outside power. So what are you saying now? Can a person do good works without the help of God?

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

The possessors of talent and education are admired and honored, as if these qualities could atone for the absence of the fear of God or entitle men to His favor. . . Many a man of cultured intellect and pleasant manners, who would not stoop to what is commonly regarded as an immoral act , is but a polished instrument in the hands of Satan. The insidious, deceptive character of his influence and example renders him a more dangerous enemy to the cause of Christ than are those who are ignorant and uncultured. {GC 509.2}

If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works , our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life . Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil . A selfish heart may perform generous actions . By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58}

Pure love is simple in its operations, and is distinct from any other principle of action. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life and frequently a blameless conversation. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions, acknowledge the present truth, and express humility and affection in an outward manner, yet the motives may be deceptive and impure; the actions that flow from such a heart may be destitute of the savor of life and the fruits of true holiness, being destitute of the principles of pure love. {2T 136.1}

Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {NL 28.1}

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." We can overcome. Yes, fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we may overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with him. {4bSG 29.3}

Help this people to see that, until they put away every sin, they will not be ready for Christ's coming. {GCB, April 6, 1903 par. 40}

All who receive Christ in truth will believe him. They will see the necessity of having Christ abiding in the heart by faith. They will escape from the control of their hereditary and cultivated tendencies, their pride, vanity, self-esteem, worldliness, and every sin, and will reveal Christ in their lives. If God's word is eaten as the bread of life, they will become thoroughly aroused to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that it is God that worketh in them, both to will and to do his own good pleasure. Men must co-operate with God. By obedience to his laws, they must reveal the respect they have for his word. They will not then disobey the commandments of God, eating of the forbidden tree of knowledge. They will heed the requirements of God. In this they are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of God, who is represented by the tree of life. {GCDB, March 6, 1899 par. 9}

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." We can overcome. Yes, fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we may overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with him. {4bSG 29.3}

You said you agree unbelievers combine human and divine powers to perform good works. How does this differ from what I asked above?

M: Are unholy, unsanctified, unregenerate sinners capable of reading "the creation of the world" aright, and, based solely on their observations of nature, arrive at the "truth", including believing God is real, and then end up "holding the truth in unrighteousness" and "knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death"?

T: According to Romans 1, all are without excuse, because the things of God are known, His invisible power being displayed, etc., because God has shown them. I think the emphasis needs to be put on God here. God is known to all because of what God has done. It has to be that way. Nobody, whether sanctified or not, can know of God by their own actions. It has to be God revealing Himself to others.

M:I don't understand how your comment answers my question. How did they come to "hold the truth"? I'm talking about the unholy, unsanctified, unregenerate sinners named above.

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;

I believe Paul was speaking about “every one that believeth” who “lived by faith” but then eventually chose not “to retain God in their knowledge” and “changed the truth of God into a lie.”

The fact they “knew God” and then “changed the truth of God into a lie” implies, in my mind, they no longer believe the truth about God. Nevertheless, in “judgment” they will be “without excuse” because they “knew God.”

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.(NASB)

The apostle begins to show that all mankind need the salvation of the gospel, because none could obtain the favour of God, or escape his wrath by their own works. For no man can plead that he has fulfilled all his obligations to God and to his neighbour; nor can any truly say that he has fully acted up to the light afforded him. The sinfulness of man is described as ungodliness against the laws of the first table, and unrighteousness against those of the second. The cause of that sinfulness is holding the truth in unrighteousness. All, more or less, do what they know to be wrong, and omit what they know to be right, so that the plea of ignorance cannot be allowed from any. Our Creator's invisible power and Godhead are so clearly shown in the works he has made, that even idolaters and wicked Gentiles are left without excuse. They foolishly followed idolatry; and rational creatures changed the worship of the glorious Creator, for that of brutes, reptiles, and senseless images. They wandered from God, till all traces of true religion must have been lost, had not the revelation of the gospel prevented it. For whatever may be pretended, as to the sufficiency of man's reason to discover Divine truth and moral obligation, or to govern the practice aright, facts cannot be denied. And these plainly show that men have dishonoured God by the most absurd idolatries and superstitions; and have degraded themselves by the vilest affections and most abominable deeds.

Could every idler in the market place understand the penalty of slothfulness, he would be up and doing. ...None will be pleased to meet their unfaithfulness in the judgment;{BEcho June 6, 1898, par. 13}

In his letter to the Romans Paul writes of the obedient and the disobedient. “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,” he says; “for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” These are the obedient. As faith in God increases, the more distinctly we endure the seeing of him who is invisible, and we are strengthened to obey him. {ST February 11, 1897, par. 9}
The Signs of the Times February 11, 1897 paragraph 10 (EGW)
The apostle then presents the great army of the disobedient, those who do not love to retain God in their knowledge, but choose their own disloyal ways, and follow the imagination of their own hearts:{ST February 11, 1897, par. 9}

T: Please respond to the other issue as well. I'll repeat it for your convenience. You were asserting they were doing good works, contrary to what I was asserting. Then you cited an EGW quote agreeing with what I was asserting. This is what has been confusing to me. So are you retracting what you said before? I don't know what's going on here. What I said was that if anyone does good works, it is because God was helping them. You disagreed with this, and said they could do good works apart from God's help. Then you quoted a statement from the SOP saying that man cannot do good works apart from an outside power. So what are you saying now? Can a person do good works without the help of God?

M:Again, we’re talking about two different kinds of good works: 1) “righteousnesses” which are the result of sanctified human faculties and divine power and honors and glorifies God, and 2) “righteousnesses” which are the result of unsanctified human faculties and do not honor or glorify God.

Tom, in reference to 1-4 above, you seem to be saying, no, not everything about recently reborn believers is new. They retain some of their old thoughts, old feelings, and old motives. The mind isn't completely changed. The faculties are not completely sanctified. Some faculties still act in old lines. They are not endowed with all the traits of character necessary to serve God blamelessly. Some of their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been softened or subdued or submitted to the transforming power of God.

If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.

Every person has a knowledge of God because what can be known of God is evident by the things which He has made, by a knowledge manifest to them by God ("God has shown them.")