Once again, we started out the discussion with me saying that no person could do good works apart from God's help. You disagreed with this, saying that an atheist, for example (this was your example) could independently do good works. You quoted from the SOP, the statement that a selfish heart could perform generous actions, to support your view.

Afterward you cited a statement from the SOP which contradicted your view, and supported my view, which said that man cannot do good works without a power outside of himself. So what I said was verified, and what you said was contradicted, but you've yet to recognize this.

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will he save us in disobedience to law. {ST, July 21, 1890 par. 7}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1}

T: If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.

M: When you say "any person" are you including people who possess unsanctified human faculties?

T: I mean any person who does a good work.

M: Your comment leaves me wondering if you believe people who possess unsanctified human faculties are capable of cooperating with God, allowing the Holy Spirit to unite unsanctified human faculties and divine power, thus enabling people like avowed atheists to perform good works. Is this what you believe?

T: I don't know why it would leave you wondering this, as I've not said anything about it.

M:Again, when you say “any person” do you include people who possess unsanctified human faculties?

Are they capable of responding to God’s help, allowing the Holy Spirit to unite their unsanctified human faculties and divine power, thus enabling people like avowed atheists to perform good works? I’m asking for clarification because your response above is very vague. Please respect my desire for you to address this question. Thank you.

T: These are independent statements. Paul is not saying in verse 17 that the reason he is not ashamed of the God is because therein is the righteousness of God revealed, but Paul is commenting upon the Gospel, which he introduced in verse 16. In verse 18, Paul goes onto his next thought, which is that all are without excuse, which is the context of Romans 1-3. Arguing against your idea is: 1.It's not an idea that anyone else who has written about Romans has had. 2.It doesn't agree with what the SOP wrote. It also doesn't agree with the flow of Paul's argument. He's arguing that all are without excuse, not that those who used to live by faith but no longer do are without excuse.

M:Surely you believe the first two “for” are connected?

“So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.” The words “for” here mean “because”. Paul is ready to preach the gospel because he believes it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it. Therefore, he is not ashamed to preach the gospel. Paul goes on to say, “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” That is, it is the power of God that enables them to live by faith.

The connection between “the just shall live by faith” and unrighteous “men who hold the truth in unrighteousness” is made clear elsewhere. “Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.” (Hab 2:4) “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Heb 10:38) “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” The word “for” here means “but” or “however”. In other words, “The just shall live by faith, but the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” The “men who hold the truth in unrighteousness” used to “live by faith”.

M:I realize you didn’t know I believe “people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.” Thank you for bearing this in mind as we continue to study. I agree with you the Holy Spirit reveals representative sins rather than the millions of individual sins they have committed throughout their life.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." What does it mean to "overcome" as Christ "overcame"?

Does it mean gradually discovering and crucifying the sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal when they initially experienced rebirth?

T:Once again, we started out the discussion with me saying that no person could do good works apart from God's help. You disagreed with this, saying that an atheist, for example (this was your example) could independently do good works. You quoted from the SOP, the statement that a selfish heart could perform generous actions, to support your view.

Afterward you cited a statement from the SOP which contradicted your view, and supported my view, which said that man cannot do good works without a power outside of himself. So what I said was verified, and what you said was contradicted, but you've yet to recognize this.

M:I believe people who possess unsanctified human faculties are capable of experiencing "righteousnesses" without the renewing, regenerating power of Christ. For example, they feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will he save us in disobedience to law. {ST, July 21, 1890 par. 7}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1}

The difference has to do with whether or not their "righteousnesses" honor and glorify God. The only way their "righteousnesses" is the result of saving faith is if they have experienced rebirth and are abiding in Jesus and are partaking of the divine nature. All other "righteousnesses are as filthy rags" even though Jesus labels them "righteousnesses".

M: I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Ignorance regarding certain doctrines, as well as diet and dress and Sabbath-keeping, are examples of ways born-again believers may not realize they are out of harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But in such cases Jesus does not hold them accountable. However, can you name cultivated sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments and count as sins of ignorance (sins for which Jesus does not hold born-again believers nowadays accountable)?

T: Does proper dress fall under the first four commandments in your way of thinking?

M: I don’t understand how your question addresses the comment above or answers the question above. I would greatly appreciate knowing your answer to the question. To answer your question, I don’t know. Why do you ask?

T: You made the claim that people know the last six commandments by instinct. If this is the case, then they shouldn't need to be educated in regards to dress, unless you think this follows under the first four commandments.

M: I specify "nowadays" to avoid bringing up people like Luther who were steeped in the sins of Babylon and had not come completely out of her by the time they died. We are living in an age when it is commonly believed racism, polygamy, and alcoholism are morally wrong.

T: Nobody today is steeped in the sins of Babylon? A person converting to Christianity in a country where Catholicism reigns won't go through similar issues that Luther went through? What about people from cultures where Jesus Christ isn't known at all? There's no room for ignorance here?

M: Again, can you name sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments, born-again believers nowadays continue to cultivate without realizing they are indulging harmful, unChristlike, counterproductive thoughts and feelings, which also count as sins of ignorance for which Jesus does not hold them accountable?

T: You mentioned dress. Let's start with that. Some people live in societies where polygamy is acceptable. Some people believe that living in a monogamous relationship is not sin, although one is not married. Some people don't see anything wrong with drinking alcohol, or smoking (either tobacco or pot, or other substances). Some cultures chew on leaves which have a mind-altering effect. Is this a sin? What about if the person is in pain? Some people have to learn how to speak purely, which starts with not swearing, for example, but involves much more than that. I don't believe a person knows instinctively all that's involved in speaking as Jesus Christ spoke. Some cultures don't see white lies as being wrong. Indeed, they see the reverse as being the case.

M: To answer your questions, No, I do not believe there are people nowadays who study the Bible, experience rebirth, consent to baptism and church membership, and continue to cultivate unknown, unrevealed, uncrucified sinful habits and practices without realizing they are indulging harmful, unChristlike, counterproductive thoughts and feelings, which also count as sins of ignorance for which Jesus does not hold them accountable.

T: So you're just talking about SDA's I take it?

T: If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.

M: When you say "any person" are you including people who possess unsanctified human faculties?

T: I mean any person who does a good work.

M: Your comment leaves me wondering if you believe people who possess unsanctified human faculties are capable of cooperating with God, allowing the Holy Spirit to unite unsanctified human faculties and divine power, thus enabling people like avowed atheists to perform good works. Is this what you believe?

T: I don't know why it would leave you wondering this, as I've not said anything about it.

M: Again, when you say “any person” do you include people who possess unsanctified human faculties? Are they capable of responding to God’s help, allowing the Holy Spirit to unite their unsanctified human faculties and divine power, thus enabling people like avowed atheists to perform good works? I’m asking for clarification because your response above is very vague. Please respect my desire for you to address this question. Thank you.

T: My response wasn't vague. I stated I made not statement in regards to such people, and I didn't. That's not vague at all. I also said that I'd like to resolve the issues we were dealing with before going on to new ones. I've already started responding to some new things you've brought up, even though we still haven't resolved the others. I'd like to keep this at a minimum. Once we get the two issues I've been asking you about for quite some time now resolved, we can open up new areas. I think this is fair.

T: These are independent statements. Paul is not saying in verse 17 that the reason he is not ashamed of the God is because therein is the righteousness of God revealed, but Paul is commenting upon the Gospel, which he introduced in verse 16. In verse 18, Paul goes onto his next thought, which is that all are without excuse, which is the context of Romans 1-3. Arguing against your idea is: 1.It's not an idea that anyone else who has written about Romans has had. 2.It doesn't agree with what the SOP wrote. It also doesn't agree with the flow of Paul's argument. He's arguing that all are without excuse, not that those who used to live by faith but no longer do are without excuse.

M: Surely you believe the first two “for” are connected? “So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.” The words “for” here mean “because”. Paul is ready to preach the gospel because he believes it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it. Therefore, he is not ashamed to preach the gospel. Paul goes on to say, “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” That is, it is the power of God that enables them to live by faith.

T: You're talking about the two "fors" in the same sentence? For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God..." Sure, these are connected. Everybody agrees with this.

M: The connection between “the just shall live by faith” and unrighteous “men who hold the truth in unrighteousness” is made clear elsewhere. “Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.” (Hab 2:4) “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Heb 10:38) “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” The word “for” here means “but” or “however”. In other words, “The just shall live by faith, but the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” The “men who hold the truth in unrighteousness” used to “live by faith”.

T: No, MM. This doesn't follow. Nobody agrees with this. Look at any commentary, any statement by the SOP, anything anywhere, and you won't find agreement with your assertion here. This is a challenge. Feel free to try to prove me wrong here.

M: I realize you didn’t know I believe “people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.” Thank you for bearing this in mind as we continue to study. I agree with you the Holy Spirit reveals representative sins rather than the millions of individual sins they have committed throughout their life.

T: Glad we agree on this. Now this is even though the SOP says that "every sin" is revealed. The same principle applies in regards to the judgment (we're discussing this on another thread, but I thought it bore mentioning here).

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. {6T 95.1}

John says, "The light"--Christ--"shineth in darkness," that is, in the world, "and the darkness comprehended it not. . . . But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The reason why the unbelieving world are not saved is that they do not choose to be enlightened. The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

The command, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect," would never have been given, if every provision had not been made whereby we may become as perfect in our sphere as God is in his. We are to be ever advancing from light to a greater light, holding fast what we have already received, and praying for more. Thus we shall never be left in darkness. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 10}

A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {Mar 237}

M: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." What does it mean to "overcome" as Christ "overcame"? Does it mean gradually discovering and crucifying the sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal when they initially experienced rebirth?

T: It means to overcome by faith.

T: Once again, we started out the discussion with me saying that no person could do good works apart from God's help. You disagreed with this, saying that an atheist, for example (this was your example) could independently do good works. You quoted from the SOP, the statement that a selfish heart could perform generous actions, to support your view. Afterward you cited a statement from the SOP which contradicted your view, and supported my view, which said that man cannot do good works without a power outside of himself. So what I said was verified, and what you said was contradicted, but you've yet to recognize this.

M: I believe people who possess unsanctified human faculties are capable of experiencing "righteousnesses" without the renewing, regenerating power of Christ. For example, they feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy.

T: I didn't speak to this. Please address the point I made.

M: Ellen wrote:


M: The difference has to do with whether or not their "righteousnesses" honor and glorify God. The only way their "righteousnesses" is the result of saving faith is if they have experienced rebirth and are abiding in Jesus and are partaking of the divine nature. All other "righteousnesses are as filthy rags" even though Jesus labels them "righteousnesses".

T: 1. I stated that a person can only do good works by God's assistance. 2. You argued against this idea. 3. You produced a statement from the SOP stating that man cannot do good works apart from an outside power. This agrees with what I was asserting!

Yes, people are born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments.

This applies to immoral dress. However, morality in dress has evolved (or devolved) since Ellen last wrote about it. Most people no longer consider it immoral for women to wear pants. However, most people agree certain styles of pants are immoral.

I believe people know instinctively, at least initially, before they sear their conscience, it is wrong to indulge the kinds of things you listed above. You seem to think they are clueless until they learn the truth about it through Bible study and prayer.

You wrote, “If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.”

Obviously “any person” and “no person” can only be referring to the only two classes of people that exist on our planet, namely, those who have experienced rebirth and those who have not experienced rebirth.

People who do not experience rebirth possess unsanctified human faculties. Therefore, your words above can only mean you believe people, like avowed atheists, who possess unsanctified human faculties, are capable of responding to God’s help, allowing the Holy Spirit to unite their unsanctified human faculties and divine power, thus enabling people to perform good works.

The only way your words above can mean anything else is if you are excluding people who have not experienced rebirth. But clearly the context of our discussion disallows this possibility. What I don’t understand is why you are unwilling to admit it.

T: You're talking about the two "fors" in the same sentence? For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God..." Sure, these are connected. Everybody agrees with this.

I’m talking about the connection I made between all the verses I linked above. Do you agree? Or, do you believe verses 15 thru 17 contain three separate thoughts, a separate and unrelated thought for each verse?

16 I am not ashamed of the Good News, because it is the power God uses to save everyone who believes—to save the Jews first, and then to save non-Jews. 17 The Good News shows how God makes people right with himself—that it begins and ends with faith. As the Scripture says, "But those who are right with God will live by faith."

All People Have Done Wrong

18 God's anger is shown from heaven against all the evil and wrong things people do. By their own evil lives they hide the truth.19 God shows his anger because some knowledge of him has been made clear to them. Yes, God has shown himself to them.20

T: 1. I stated that a person can only do good works by God's assistance. 2. You argued against this idea. 3. You produced a statement from the SOP stating that man cannot do good works apart from an outside power. This agrees with what I was asserting!

M:I attempted to explain why I believe only the “righteousnesses” performed by born-again believers honors and glorifies God.

It appears you took that to mean I believe unbelievers are incapable of performing “righteousnesses” without God’s help.

However, I agree with Ellen that “a selfish heart may perform generous actions . . . may produce a well-ordered life . . . avoid the appearance of evil . . . without the renewing power of Christ.”

Nevertheless, their “righteousnesses” count as “filthy rags” because it does not honor and glorify God.

Which is not too say feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy is evil. It is obviously good.