My original thought upon reading this verse was the intended meaning is "the violent seek (or "attempt") to take it by force," that is, that the word "seek" is implied. I don't know if this is a viable idea or not.


Where the notion of “‘similar mental bias’ here??

From a semi exhaustive exegetical study that I have done on this verse, but succinctly summarized here:

-the Greek word “biazomai” translated here as “violent’ actually refers to “(mental) bias” thus it refers to one who acts with a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue situation; influence in an unfair way; or going across the grain.
It speaks of forcefully acting with a mindset and not pointedly to the physicality involved. It involves changing a bias mindset.

NJK: So my point has been from the start that God only uses the sentence of death when sin threatens life. Of course Tom (unbiblically, in my understanding) said and says that ‘sin organically always is life threatening’

Tom:I haven't said this. This doesn't mean I disagree with it, but the fact that you use quotes here is a bit confusing, since quote marks usually indicate that you're quoting someone. What I've said is that there is an organic relationship between sin and death; that the inevitable result of sin is death.

NJK:I follow the convention of using single quote for a paraphrase. Since it seemed to me that you had indeed said that ‘the sinner must die because of the “organic relationship between sin and death; that the inevitable result of sin is death”’, thus sin is also threatening to the sinner himself’, I added that understood understanding in that paraphrase.

Originally Posted By: Tom
As James puts it, sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

NJK:As already said, I see this as fully blown/accomplished sin/sinful behavior. You are not giving the proper weight to the word “finished/completed” (Gr. #658 which is not ‘merely committed’ which was here expressed as “birthed”). Indeed the intended illustrative ‘development progression’ by James is: “conception” (#4815)... “birth” (#5088) and “finishing completion” (#658) = “fully lived and aged life” which, as it naturally really does, likewise then ends in a natural death; and all this stemming from the committed “union” act of ‘having given in to temptation’ (vs. 14).

NJK:-I also do not see in the Bible (or even in direct revelation in the SOP) a consuming fire type of destruction at the end of the 6000 years of GC.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Also the sting of death is sin; the wages of sin is death; the soul that sins shall die; convey the same thought. God Himself said one of these, and inspired others to say the rest.


Succinctly said, out of exegetical, and not your “proof-texting”, reasons:

the sting of death is sin - (1 Cor 15:56) = sin is the ‘sharp goading point’ reason that make it why death can occur in sinning created beings, and that by the barring of access to the Tree of Life!

The sting of death - The sting which death bears; that with which he effects his purpose; that which is made use of to inflict death; or that which is the cause of death. There would be no death without sin.

The sting of death is sin - The apostle explains himself particularly here: death could not have entered into the world if sin had not entered first; it was sin that not only introduced death, but has armed him with all his destroying force; the goad or dagger of death is sin; by this both body and soul are slain.

The sting of death is sin,.... Death has a sting, and which was originally in it, and that is sin; sin is the cause of death, it is what has given rise and being to it; it entered into the world by it, and is supported in its empire through it; it gives it its resistless power, which reaches to all sorts of persons, young and old, rich and poor, high and low, bond and free; it gives it all its bitterness, agonies, and miseries; and it is by that it does all the hurt and mischief it does; and it may fitly be compared to a sting, for its poisonous and venomous nature:

Tom: If they are filled with violence, then they're killing others, and the Tree of Life is no help in this case. It doesn't resurrect the dead. Eventually only one would be left, the strongest, most cunning violent person (or the luckiest), and then that person would kill himself or herself. Given what we know to be the case about sin, this seems like a very plausible scenario. What prevents things like this from happening is not the Tree of Life, but the grace of God. Take away the grace of God, and the scenario I've traced out, or a worse one, would take place so fast it would be head-spinning.
...
We simply have no idea of the "sinfulness of sin," as EGW often said, not giving the credit we should to the grace/kindness/mercy of God, because we don't perceive its importance.


NJK:Those were conditions with sinning people after the tree of life was removed. As I already addressed here things could have been drastically different without that measure.

In the context of an existing “survival of the fittest” where Men could die from various causes, such violence was probably borne out of that, including mental imbalances. However in a perfect physical and mental state, many of the reasons for such violence may have been removed/not utilized from even a sinful, but, assuredly, perpetually living people. E.g., no need to basely covet your neighbor’s spouse if your own spouse is just as physically perfect.

Every sin, every unrighteous action, every transgression of the law of God, tells with a thousandfold more force upon the actor than the sufferer. (TDG 350)

And just as a comparison, why don’t you see that “killing everywhere” debacle in our world today?? (as I’ll later point out)

I have, during this discussion, come to ponder why God took that measure which seems unjustified vs. allowing sinful man to live on this planet without Him being present at all, but having access to the Tree of Life, as taking away the Tree and thus perpetual life solely because these are choosing to live apart of at least one of God’s law would seem like a petty:

‘...or else I’ll take my ball and go home’ act on the part of God, however in your response above, I have seen the reason why. You say it is the ‘grace of God’ that prevents a total debacle on the earth which could also be understood as “mercy”.

So I see that God really had two option here:

Option #1 - Let sinning man indeed live on his own with the Tree of Life, but without His tempering Spirit and also under the full control of Satan, but also procreating. As I see it, it is because of the total absence of His Spirit then, that your scenario may indeed come to occur here. However I see it that Satan would have here his opportunity to grow his kingdom of rebellion, so he would not be, like he is now, seeking to vindictively lead these “subjects” to destruction, but would set himself up as a god over them and, ironically enough, probably have something similar as the last 6 commandments to maintain this needed life and livelihood, just as secular societies do today.

Also the GC war would go on as new territory and resources beyond this planet would come to be needed to and since Satan cannot created he would seek to overtake other worlds. So this would resemble “George Lucas’s Intergalactic Star Wars”. And for a fight to be considered as fair, it would have to be (Sinning) Humans vs. (Unfallen) Humans and not Angels vs. Humans. So other unfallen worlds would inevitably be drawn into this war and also their death, completely undeserved would then be likely to occur, despite having access to the Tree of Life. (That is another reason why I understand, derived from my understanding of Gen 3:22-24, that it is not sin itself that causes death but a forceful act is to be taken to effectuate (a deserved) death.

Option #2 - (Chosen option) Remove the Tree of Life and instead allow His Spirit to ‘strive with even sinful men, His outrightly undeserving creation’ (Gen 6:3a), until there, as it was the case by the Flood, no longer any redeemable “thoughts” in them for Him to work with (Gen 6:5). This option also allows for the fairer and safer demonstration of the GC. Hence God’s Choice was perfectly wise. And the only way in which this world will come into a total sinful debacle is when, in the utter, past probation end, in the last Plague, God will become indivisibly “empassioned” and thus no longer have any sort of grace/mercy while the 4 winds that affect human passions will also have been allowed to blow, culminating in the 7th Plague utter suffering and chaos.

That of course does not mean that no violence would exist, as it surely would, but that it probably may have been much less, indeed simply from the removal of that constant angst, stress, anxiety, pain, etc., to simply survive in a world that was naturally non-productive or cooperative, among other such hardships brought about by the removal of the fruit of life.

Also no need to fight for a would be “more favorable” geographical place to settle in.” etcs.

1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. (James 4)

On: Mountain Man’s SOP quotes on ‘Fully Understanding God’:

My personal view which guides my Bible study is that we can fully understand about God what He has allowed to be revealed/recorded in Scripture and the SOP. I do not see that we have begun to either fully or rightly understand those revelation.

I also see that what has been revealed in the Bible and SOP is what is necessary for our redemption and GC victory. We are only responsible for what we can rightly ascertain about God in the Bible and not what cannot be known. So we should be diligent to understand these. The rest may come later in Heaven probably throughout eternity.

So I do not see that engaging in seeking to understand God fully according to these revelations as even being capable of making one seek to ‘understand what cannot be understood.’

Fine. I'm taking things out of order, so if I haven't responded to a previous post of yours, don't think I've overlooked it.



It means there's a cause and effect relationship, like planting carrot seeds results in carrots. By faith/obedience we plant seeds resulting in life, or by unbelief/sin we plan seeds which result in death. God alone is the source of life. By unbelief/sin the sinner separates himself from God, thus cutting himself off from life.



Had Adam and Eve died the moment they sinned, the human race would have perished, and could not participate in the Great Controversy. God didn't want this to happen, so enabled a means by which there would be a probationary period in which people could make decisions which would be enacted, if that's the right word, in the resurrection.



The grace of God.



Same.



Satan's vital force it would seem to me. It seems that angels have significantly more vital force than humans, and that Satan, as the greatest of the angels (as originally created) has more vital force than the others. I don't have any SOP texts for this, but you asked me, so I'm answering what comes to mind.

The guilt of every sin pressed its weight upon the divine soul of the world's Redeemer. The evil thoughts, the evil words, the evil deeds of every son and daughter of Adam, called for retribution upon Himself; for He had become man's substitute. {FLB 101.3}

How little do they consider that their deeds and words are passing into judgment, and that every sin must have its retribution in the future! {RH, February 28, 1882 par. 4}

These sins in a short time will be revealed in just their enormity. God's eye does not slumber. He knows every sin that is hidden from mortal eye. The guilty know just what sins to confess that their souls may be clean before God. {1T 155.3}

Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1}

Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. {GC 489.3}

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

Satan will be judged by his own idea of justice. It was his plea that every sin should meet its punishment. If God remitted the punishment, he said, He was not a God of truth or justice. Satan will meet the judgment which he said God should exercise (MS 111, 1897). {5BC 1087.4}

M: You need to balance your favorite quote with the following insights: ... God has not revealed everything there is to know about Himself. We are incapable of comprehending certain aspects of God. He has only revealed everything we "need to know" about Him. One of the many things He has not explained to us is "His strange act".

T: This isn't linguistically viable. She wrote that all that man needs to know, or can know, of God was revealed in the life and character of His son. You're introducing exceptions to this, without any justification whatsoever. She nowhere wrote that God's "strange act" wasn't revealed in the life and character of His Son. Your "balancing" is simply negating what she wrote. If what you're suggesting were true, then the following would also be true: "All that man needs to know, or can know, of God was NOT revealed in the life and character of His son." This is the direct opposite of what she actually wrote.

We can know of Him all that human beings can bear. {UL 347.6}

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}

God cannot be understood by men. His ways and works are past finding out. In regard to the revelations that He has made of Himself in His Word, we may talk, but other than this, let us say of Him, Thou art God, and Thy ways are past finding out. {6BC 1079.11}

Human talents and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out, in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless, and the fact will remain that man by searching cannot find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the Great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are, in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {MM 95.2}

In Christ Jesus is a revelation of the glory of the Godhead. All that the human agent can know of God to the saving of the soul, is the measure of the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus, to which he can attain; for Christ is he who represents the Father. The most wonderful truth to be grasped by men is the truth, "Immanuel, God with us." Christ is the wisdom of God. He is the great "I AM" to the world. As we contemplate the glory of the divine character as revealed in Christ, we are led to exclaim, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" This wisdom is displayed in the love that reaches out for the recovery of lost and ruined man. {ST, December 12, 1895 par. 5}

The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though he executes judgment upon the transgressors of his law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, he must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: "The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act." The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love. {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked has emboldened men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The very fact of His reluctance to execute justice, testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments, and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {ST, January 25, 1910 par. 16}

His creative works are just as incomprehensible as his existence. {3SG 93.1}

"Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable." {3SG 93.2}

"Which doeth great things, past finding out; yea, and wonders without number." {3SG 93.3}

"Which doeth great things, and unsearchable; marvelous things without number." {3SG 93.4}

God thundereth marvelously with his voice. Great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend." {3SG 93.5}

"O, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?" {3SG 93.6}

"God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Language is too feeble for us to attempt to portray the love of God. We believe it, we rejoice in it, but we cannot comprehend it. {18MR 337.2}

Yet the finite minds of men are inadequate fully to comprehend the plans and purposes of the Infinite One. We can never by searching find out God. We must not attempt to lift with presumptuous hand the curtain behind which He veils His majesty. The apostle exclaims: "How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33. We can so far comprehend His dealings with us, and the motives by which He is actuated, that we may discern boundless love and mercy united to infinite power. Our Father in heaven orders everything in wisdom and righteousness, and we are not to be dissatisfied and distrustful, but to bow in reverent submission. He will reveal to us as much of His purposes as it is for our good to know, and beyond that we must trust the Hand that is omnipotent, the Heart that is full of love. {DD 11.2}

The Word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings. . . . {FLB 14.2}

If it were possible for created beings to attain to a full understanding of God and His works, then, having reached this point, there would be for them no further discovery of truth, no growth in knowledge, no further development of mind or heart. God would no longer be supreme; and men, having reached the limit of knowledge and attainment, would cease to advance. Let us thank God that it is not so. God is infinite; in Him are "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Colossians 2:3. And to all eternity men may be ever searching, ever learning, and yet they can never exhaust the treasures of His wisdom, His goodness, and His power. {FLB 14.3}

In the natural world we are constantly surrounded with mysteries that we cannot fathom. . . . Should we then be surprised to find that in the spiritual world also there are mysteries that we cannot fathom? {FLB 14.4}

The mysteries of the Bible . . . are among the strongest evidences of its divine inspiration. If it contained no account of God but that which we could comprehend; if His greatness and majesty could be grasped by finite minds, then the Bible would not, as now, bear the unmistakable evidences of divinity. . . . The more we search the Bible, the deeper is our conviction that it is the word of the living God, and human reason bows before the majesty of divine revelation. {FLB 14.5}

Christ will lead the redeemed ones beside the river of life, and will open to them that which while on this earth they could not understand. {FLB 14.6}

In the light that shines from the throne, mysteries will disappear, and the soul will be filled with astonishment at the simplicity of the things that were never before comprehended. {FLB 14.7}

We can never by searching find out God. He does not lay open His plans to prying, inquisitive minds. We must not attempt to lift with presumptuous hand the curtain behind which He veils His majesty. The apostle exclaims, "How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" It is a proof of His mercy that there is the hiding of His power, that He is enshrouded in the awful clouds of mystery and obscurity; for to lift the curtain that conceals the Divine Presence is death. No mortal mind can penetrate the secrecy in which the Mighty One dwells and works. We can comprehend no more of His dealings with us and the motives that actuate Him than He sees fit to reveal. He orders everything in righteousness, and we are not to be dissatisfied and distrustful, but to bow in reverent submission. He will reveal to us as much of His purposes as it is for our good to know; and beyond that we must trust the hand that is omnipotent, the heart that is full of love (Review and Herald, Apr. 7, 1885). {LHU 361.5}

But many mysteries yet remain unrevealed. How much that is acknowledged to be truth is mysterious and unexplainable to the human mind! How dark seem the dispensations of Providence! What necessity there is for implicit faith and trust in God's moral government! We are ready to say with Paul, "How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" {6BC 1091.6}

We are not now sufficiently advanced in spiritual attainments to comprehend the mysteries of God. But when we shall compose the family of heaven, these mysteries will be unfolded before us. Of the members of that family John writes: "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." {6BC 1091.7}

Then much will be revealed in explanation of matters upon which God now keeps silence because we have not gathered up and appreciated that which has been made known of the eternal mysteries. The ways of Providence will be made clear; the mysteries of grace through Christ will be unfolded. That which the mind cannot now grasp, which is hard to be understood, will be explained. We shall see order in that which has seemed unexplainable; wisdom in everything withheld; goodness and gracious mercy in everything imparted. Truth will be unfolded to the mind, free from obscurity, in a single line, and its brightness will be endurable. The heart will be made to sing for joy. Controversies will be forever ended, and all difficulties will be solved (ST Jan. 30, 1912). {6BC 1091.8}

The word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings. The entrance of sin into the world, the incarnation of Christ, regeneration, the resurrection, and many other subjects presented in the Bible, are mysteries too deep for the human mind to explain, or even fully to comprehend. But we have no reason to doubt God's word because we cannot understand the mysteries of His providence. In the natural world we are constantly surrounded with mysteries that we cannot fathom. The very humblest forms of life present a problem that the wisest of philosophers is powerless to explain. Everywhere are wonders beyond our ken. Should we then be surprised to find that in the spiritual world also there are mysteries that we cannot fathom? The difficulty lies solely in the weakness and narrowness of the human mind. God has given us in the Scriptures sufficient evidence of their divine character, and we are not to doubt His word because we cannot understand all the mysteries of His providence. {SC 106.2}

Man cannot by searching find out God. Let none seek with presumptuous hand to lift the veil that conceals His glory. "Unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Romans 11:33. It is a proof of His mercy that there is the hiding of His power; for to lift the veil that conceals the divine presence is death. No mortal mind can penetrate the secrecy in which the Mighty One dwells and works. Only that which He sees fit to reveal can we comprehend of Him. Reason must acknowledge an authority superior to itself. Heart and intellect must bow to the great I AM. {8T 285.2}

1. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

M: Seems to me you believe Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle because 1) the Jews failed to trust Jesus to defeat their enemies in a godly way, and 2) the Jews expected Him to think and behave like a pagan god. Do you agree with my assessment of your view as it relates to the question above?

T: No, of course not. But surely you must know that.

M: Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

T: What are the principles laid out in GC 35-37? That's the important question. Did Jesus Christ teach and embody these principles? Yes, He did. Where we're disagreeing is in regards to what we think God is like. I believe God's character was revealed fully by Jesus Christ, and the best revelation was the cross. Rather than use force to get His way, Jesus Christ voluntarily submitted to torture and a horrible death from the very creatures He came to save. This is what God is like. Not just sometimes, but all the time. The principles explained in GC 35-37 are in harmony with what Jesus Christ revealed. Your perceptions of God's character appear to me to be schizophrenic. Some of the time, as it appears to me you see things, He exhibits the qualities Jesus Christ embodied on earth, especially at the cross, but other times He acts indistinguishably from Satan, leaving us with no means to know who is acting.

2. In the OT, why did Jesus command godly people to kill ungodly people through the execution of capital punishment?

T: You repeated yourself.

M: Was Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment?

T: What's your argument here? That since Jesus Christ, while here in the flesh, wasn't forced to command godly people to kill ungodly people in obedience to divine laws requiring capital punishment, it therefore follows that it's not the case that all that we can know of God was revealed by Him? I can't think of why you would ask this question otherwise. Why not just set forth your argument?

M: Seems to me you believe Jesus was reluctantly willing to command the kinds of things described in the passages above for as long as it would take Him to teach the Jews how to "turn the other cheek"? Is this what you believe?

T: I believe, as I've said so many times, that for us to properly interpret Scripture, we need to know God's character. I believe that the first order of business is to study the life and character of His Son, whose "whole purpose" was "the revelation of God." What is it that Jesus Christ revealed? What was Jesus Christ like? How did He treat His enemies? I don't believe that He acted any differently in the Old Testament than while here in the flesh. Do you?

M: Are His hands tied in the sense He isn’t free to prevent things like N&A being burned alive? Do such things happen with or without His consent?

T: Mike, God allowed it to happen. So obviously he was able to do so. Instead of asking questions like this which have only one answer, which is obvious, perhaps you could just write out what you're thinking.

4. Is Satan free to do as he pleases without limits?

T: Satan would destroy everyone, and there wouldn't be any Great Controversy, which is a point I've made many times, which you are aware of.

M: Does Satan exercise self-control? Does he work to restrain himself? Who or what establishes and enforces the limits Satan does not exceed?

T: We get some idea of how this works from Job. I don't know that I'm aware of how things work beyond what's revealed there.

5. Did Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), choose to allow things like ungodly people being burned alive?

T: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! (Luke 13:34)

M: You seem to be suggesting Jesus allowed ungodly people to be killed while He was here in the flesh. Who was killed?

T: In what Jesus said, He expressed that He was willing, desiring even, to protect Jerusalem as a chicken would protect its chicks. He was very sorry they did not permit Him to do so. This is the principle enunciated in GC 35-37.

M: Are His hands tied in the sense He isn’t free to prevent things like N&A being burned alive? Do such things happen with or without His consent?

T: Mike, God allowed it to happen. So obviously he was able to do so. Instead of asking questions like this which have only one answer, which is obvious, perhaps you could just write out what you're thinking.

M:I had no idea it was obvious to you Jesus has options He chooses, at times, not to exercise.

MM:You say it's the grace of God that enables sinners to sin without immediately experiencing the second death, but then you say it's Satan's vital force that enables him to live with sin long after sinners perish in the lake of fire. What's the difference?

PS - Thank you for assuring me you will respond to 132454 thru 456.