This says, "we can overcome." It doesn't say "we have already overcome." It says "that we may overcome ... every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last." The idea that one, at conversion (= born again) has *already* overcome every temptation, every sin, is certainly getting the cart before the horse! When one first comes to Jesus, one is barely aware of the sin which is in one's life. One has just started down the path. Every sin that is revealed must be confessed, but the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal every sin at once. That would overwhelm the one coming to Christ. To give a simple example, not everyone who comes to Christ even knows about the Sabbath. So there's an example of a sin that a born again believer hasn't confessed or overcome.

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

T:If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.

M:When you say "any person" are you including people who possess unsanctified human faculties?

T:Every person has a knowledge of God because what can be known of God is evident by the things which He has made, by a knowledge manifest to them by God ("God has shown them.")

M:Does everyone everywhere "hold the truth," "live by faith" and know "the judgment of God, that they which commit [sin] are worthy of death"?

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." What does it mean to "overcome" as Christ "overcame"? Does it mean gradually discovering and crucifying unrevealed, unknown sinful habits and practices?

I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

Ignorance regarding certain doctrines, as well as diet and dress and Sabbath-keeping, are examples of ways born-again believers may not realize they are out of harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But in such cases Jesus does not hold them accountable.

However, can you name cultivated sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments and count as sins of ignorance (sins for which Jesus does not hold born-again believers nowadays accountable)?

NOTE: I specify "nowadays" to avoid bringing up people like Luther who were steeped in the sins of Babylon and had not come completely out of her by the time they died. We are living in an age when it is commonly believed racism, polygamy, and alcoholism are morally wrong.

She clearly says "every spot of defilement . . . deformity and defects of the human character . . . the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips . . . acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God" are all "painfully" exposed, laid bare, made distinctly apparent. Her graphic language leads one to believe no sinful habit or practice is omitted or overlooked.

You, on the other hand, seem to think the Holy Spirit chooses not to reveal "every" sinful habit and practice because He does not want to overwhelm frail, fragile newborn believers. This idea begs the question -

T: If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.

M: When you say "any person" are you including people who possess unsanctified human faculties?

T: I mean any person who does a good work.

T: Every person has a knowledge of God because what can be known of God is evident by the things which He has made, by a knowledge manifest to them by God ("God has shown them.")

M: Does everyone everywhere "hold the truth," "live by faith" and know "the judgment of God, that they which commit [sin] are worthy of death"?

T: Here's the Romans 1 passage. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” It doesn't say anything about those who "live by faith." As I mentioned previously, I've never come across anyone holding your view. The SOP says Paul is referring to the class of the disobedient. This would hardly be the class of people "living by faith." Do you realize that your point of view here is unique?

1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

T: This says, "we can overcome." It doesn't say "we have already overcome." It says "that we may overcome ... every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last." The idea that one, at conversion (= born again) has *already* overcome every temptation, every sin, is certainly getting the cart before the horse! When one first comes to Jesus, one is barely aware of the sin which is in one's life. One has just started down the path. Every sin that is revealed must be confessed, but the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal every sin at once. That would overwhelm the one coming to Christ. To give a simple example, not everyone who comes to Christ even knows about the Sabbath. So there's an example of a sin that a born again believer hasn't confessed or overcome.

M: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." What does it mean to "overcome" as Christ "overcame"? Does it mean gradually discovering and crucifying unrevealed, unknown sinful habits and practices? I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

T: I didn't know this.

M: I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Ignorance regarding certain doctrines, as well as diet and dress and Sabbath-keeping, are examples of ways born-again believers may not realize they are out of harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But in such cases Jesus does not hold them accountable. However, can you name cultivated sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments and count as sins of ignorance (sins for which Jesus does not hold born-again believers nowadays accountable)?

T: Does proper dress fall under the first four commandments in your way of thinking?

M: I specify "nowadays" to avoid bringing up people like Luther who were steeped in the sins of Babylon and had not come completely out of her by the time they died. We are living in an age when it is commonly believed racism, polygamy, and alcoholism are morally wrong.

T: Nobody today is steeped in the sins of Babylon? A person converting to Christianity in a country where Catholicism reigns won't go through similar issues that Luther went through? What about people from cultures where Jesus Christ isn't known at all? There's no room for ignorance here?

M: [quote omitted by Tom] She clearly says "every spot of defilement . . . deformity and defects of the human character . . . the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips . . . acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God" are all "painfully" exposed, laid bare, made distinctly apparent. Her graphic language leads one to believe no sinful habit or practice is omitted or overlooked.

You, on the other hand, seem to think the Holy Spirit chooses not to reveal "every" sinful habit and practice because He does not want to overwhelm frail, fragile newborn believers. This idea begs the question - What are some examples of sinful habits and practices people continue to cultivate after they experience rebirth because the Holy Spirit is unwilling to reveal them for fear of overwhelming newborn believers? Also, what affect do their unrevealed, uncrucified sinful habits and practices have on those around them at work, at home, and at church?

In answering this question please bear in mind the following insights: “Those who really desire to glorify God will be thankful for the exposure of every idol and every sin, that they may see these evils and put them away, but the divided heart will plead for indulgence rather than denial." (4T 354) "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ." (6BC 1075)

T: It's obvious that she is referring to sins that the Holy Spirit reveals at the time of conversion. She's not referring to ever sin which the person has every committed. That would be impossible. How many sins to you think a person has committed by the time of conversion?

T: If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.

M: When you say "any person" are you including people who possess unsanctified human faculties?

T: I mean any person who does a good work.

M:Your comment leaves me wondering if you believe people who possess unsanctified human faculties are capable of cooperating with God, allowing the Holy Spirit to unite unsanctified human faculties and divine power, thus enabling people like avowed atheists to perform good works. Is this what you believe?

T: Every person has a knowledge of God because what can be known of God is evident by the things which He has made, by a knowledge manifest to them by God ("God has shown them.")

M: Does everyone everywhere "hold the truth," "live by faith" and know "the judgment of God, that they which commit [sin] are worthy of death"?

T: Here's the Romans 1 passage. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” It doesn't say anything about those who "live by faith." As I mentioned previously, I've never come across anyone holding your view. The SOP says Paul is referring to the class of the disobedient. This would hardly be the class of people "living by faith." Do you realize that your point of view here is unique?

Why do you believe the context begins in verse 18? I believe the context of Paul’s thought begins in verse 14:

Paul says “the gospel of Christ . . . is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” He continues his thought in the next verse with the word “for”, thus connecting what he just said with what he is about to say. “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.” Those who “hold the truth in unrighteousness” are the very ones who once believed and lived by faith and experienced the power of God unto salvation from faith to faith.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

T: This says, "we can overcome." It doesn't say "we have already overcome." It says "that we may overcome ... every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last." The idea that one, at conversion (= born again) has *already* overcome every temptation, every sin, is certainly getting the cart before the horse! When one first comes to Jesus, one is barely aware of the sin which is in one's life. One has just started down the path. Every sin that is revealed must be confessed, but the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal every sin at once. That would overwhelm the one coming to Christ. To give a simple example, not everyone who comes to Christ even knows about the Sabbath. So there's an example of a sin that a born again believer hasn't confessed or overcome.

M: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." What does it mean to "overcome" as Christ "overcame"? Does it mean gradually discovering and crucifying unrevealed, unknown sinful habits and practices? I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

T: I didn't know this.

M:Please bear in mind I believe “people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded” as we continue to study. Also, please address the question above.

M: I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Ignorance regarding certain doctrines, as well as diet and dress and Sabbath-keeping, are examples of ways born-again believers may not realize they are out of harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But in such cases Jesus does not hold them accountable. However, can you name cultivated sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments and count as sins of ignorance (sins for which Jesus does not hold born-again believers nowadays accountable)?

T: Does proper dress fall under the first four commandments in your way of thinking?

M:I don’t understand how your question addresses the comment above or answers the question above. I would greatly appreciate knowing your answer to the question. To answer your question, I don’t know. Why do you ask?

M: I specify "nowadays" to avoid bringing up people like Luther who were steeped in the sins of Babylon and had not come completely out of her by the time they died. We are living in an age when it is commonly believed racism, polygamy, and alcoholism are morally wrong.

T: Nobody today is steeped in the sins of Babylon? A person converting to Christianity in a country where Catholicism reigns won't go through similar issues that Luther went through? What about people from cultures where Jesus Christ isn't known at all? There's no room for ignorance here?

M:Again, can you name sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments, born-again believers nowadays continue to cultivate without realizing they are indulging harmful, unChristlike, counterproductive thoughts and feelings, which also count as sins of ignorance for which Jesus does not hold them accountable?

To answer your questions, No, I do not believe there are people nowadays who study the Bible, experience rebirth, consent to baptism and church membership, and continue to cultivate unknown, unrevealed, uncrucified sinful habits and practices without realizing they are indulging harmful, unChristlike, counterproductive thoughts and feelings, which also count as sins of ignorance for which Jesus does not hold them accountable.

Once again, we started out the discussion with me saying that no person could do good works apart from God's help. You disagreed with this, saying that an atheist, for example (this was your example) could independently do good works. You quoted from the SOP, the statement that a selfish heart could perform generous actions, to support your view.

Afterward you cited a statement from the SOP which contradicted your view, and supported my view, which said that man cannot do good works without a power outside of himself.

So what I said was verified, and what you said was contradicted, but you've yet to recognize this.

T: If any person does good works, it is by God's help. No person can do good works independently of God.

M: When you say "any person" are you including people who possess unsanctified human faculties?

T: I mean any person who does a good work.

M: Your comment leaves me wondering if you believe people who possess unsanctified human faculties are capable of cooperating with God, allowing the Holy Spirit to unite unsanctified human faculties and divine power, thus enabling people like avowed atheists to perform good works. Is this what you believe?

T: I don't know why it would leave you wondering this, as I've not said anything about it.

T: Every person has a knowledge of God because what can be known of God is evident by the things which He has made, by a knowledge manifest to them by God ("God has shown them.")

M: Does everyone everywhere "hold the truth," "live by faith" and know "the judgment of God, that they which commit [sin] are worthy of death"?

T: Here's the Romans 1 passage. 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” It doesn't say anything about those who "live by faith." As I mentioned previously, I've never come across anyone holding your view. The SOP says Paul is referring to the class of the disobedient. This would hardly be the class of people "living by faith." Do you realize that your point of view here is unique?

M: Why do you believe the context begins in verse 18? I believe the context of Paul’s thought begins in verse 14:

T: I didn't say the context begins in verse 18. The context of Romans 1-3 is that all our guilty. Paul considers different classes of men, to show that all need Christ. The class of men described by Paul in the verses I cited are described by the SOP as the class of the disobedient.

M: Paul says “the gospel of Christ . . . is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” He continues his thought in the next verse with the word “for”, thus connecting what he just said with what he is about to say. “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.” Those who “hold the truth in unrighteousness” are the very ones who once believed and lived by faith and experienced the power of God unto salvation from faith to faith.

T: You're reasoning here isn't valid. The "fors" aren't connected in this way. If they were, every commentary would be making this same point you are. But none do. Let's look at the first three "fors":


T: These are independent statements. Paul is not saying in verse 17 that the reason he is not ashamed of the God is because therein is the righteousness of God revealed, but Paul is commenting upon the Gospel, which he introduced in verse 16. In verse 18, Paul goes onto his next thought, which is that all are without excuse, which is the context of Romans 1-3. Arguing against your idea is: 1.It's not an idea that anyone else who has written about Romans has had. 2.It doesn't agree with what the SOP wrote. It also doesn't agree with the flow of Paul's argument. He's arguing that all are without excuse, not that those who used to live by faith but no longer do are without excuse.

T: This says, "we can overcome." It doesn't say "we have already overcome." It says "that we may overcome ... every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last." The idea that one, at conversion (= born again) has *already* overcome every temptation, every sin, is certainly getting the cart before the horse! When one first comes to Jesus, one is barely aware of the sin which is in one's life. One has just started down the path. Every sin that is revealed must be confessed, but the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal every sin at once. That would overwhelm the one coming to Christ. To give a simple example, not everyone who comes to Christ even knows about the Sabbath. So there's an example of a sin that a born again believer hasn't confessed or overcome.

M: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." What does it mean to "overcome" as Christ "overcame"? Does it mean gradually discovering and crucifying unrevealed, unknown sinful habits and practices? I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

T: I didn't know this.

M: Please bear in mind I believe “people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded” as we continue to study. Also, please address the question above.

T: I thought you didn't believe a person was born again until they completed the process of obeying everything that Jesus commanded. That's why I said I didn't know this. What I think happens is that when a person is converted, God shows to such a one his representative sins, the ones that God wishes him to be aware of, and then the Holy Spirit works with such an individually, as long as he is willing, revealing more and more things, as the person becomes more and more like Christ. I don't believe this happens in an instant.

M: I agree, of course, people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Ignorance regarding certain doctrines, as well as diet and dress and Sabbath-keeping, are examples of ways born-again believers may not realize they are out of harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But in such cases Jesus does not hold them accountable. However, can you name cultivated sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments and count as sins of ignorance (sins for which Jesus does not hold born-again believers nowadays accountable)?

T: Does proper dress fall under the first four commandments in your way of thinking?

M: I don’t understand how your question addresses the comment above or answers the question above. I would greatly appreciate knowing your answer to the question. To answer your question, I don’t know. Why do you ask?

T: You made the claim that people know the last six commandments by instinct. If this is the case, then they shouldn't need to be educated in regards to dress, unless you think this follows under the first four commandments.

M: I specify "nowadays" to avoid bringing up people like Luther who were steeped in the sins of Babylon and had not come completely out of her by the time they died. We are living in an age when it is commonly believed racism, polygamy, and alcoholism are morally wrong.

T: Nobody today is steeped in the sins of Babylon? A person converting to Christianity in a country where Catholicism reigns won't go through similar issues that Luther went through? What about people from cultures where Jesus Christ isn't known at all? There's no room for ignorance here?

M: Again, can you name sinful habits and practices, which violate the last six commandments, born-again believers nowadays continue to cultivate without realizing they are indulging harmful, unChristlike, counterproductive thoughts and feelings, which also count as sins of ignorance for which Jesus does not hold them accountable?

T: You mentioned dress. Let's start with that. Some people live in societies where polygamy is acceptable. Some people believe that living in a monogamous relationship is not sin, although one is not married. Some people don't see anything wrong with drinking alcohol, or smoking (either tobacco or pot, or other substances). Some cultures chew on leaves which have a mind-altering effect. Is this a sin? What about if the person is in pain? Some people have to learn how to speak purely, which starts with not swearing, for example, but involves much more than that. I don't believe a person knows instinctively all that's involved in speaking as Jesus Christ spoke. Some cultures don't see white lies as being wrong. Indeed, they see the reverse as being the case.

M: To answer your questions, No, I do not believe there are people nowadays who study the Bible, experience rebirth, consent to baptism and church membership, and continue to cultivate unknown, unrevealed, uncrucified sinful habits and practices without realizing they are indulging harmful, unChristlike, counterproductive thoughts and feelings, which also count as sins of ignorance for which Jesus does not hold them accountable.

T: So you're just talking about SDA's I take it?