Hi Kland, I appreciate your interest in this topic. I think you read too quickly or not entirely what I posted for you are saying something I've never said. Read the section under the title How Lucifer fell & Vanity of the Mind in post #132871. Hope that will clarify things.

Yes, that was from what I concluded my comment. I realize you didn't intend to say such, but that's what it came across and comes across to me. Unless you are saying God caused Lucifer to have pride? Which I don't think you are saying either.

Maybe, give an example of free will.

Sorry Kland, I’m the one who didn’t read your post properly. I now see your point and I’m glad you’ve expressed it. That might help to make a clear distinction if I can find the proper words.

Just because we have the ability to think and reason, doesn’t equate we have freewill, nor does it mean we are capable or design to govern ourself. If we acknowledge that all things come from God including our thoughts and our will; then God is indeed Sovereign over all including over our own minds, then the reality is there is no freewill.

However, if you believe that “you” are the one that govern your own mind and thoughts and can come to reason and some understanding on your own; then you believe that you have inherent abilities that is independent from God and can come to your own decisions by your own abilities of your own mind. Therefore God is not the Sovereign God over your mind and has design man to govern his own thoughts and make his own choices.

Sadly, most Christian do believe that they can govern their own mind(heart), because God did subject us to our corrupt mind(heart)(Rom 1:24, 26, 28; 2Ch 30:7; Ps 81:12; Act7:42) at the fall. However, it still doesn’t prove that we can govern our own mind, nor that we have a freewill just because God, in His wisdom, let us learn reality through this subjection of our vanity (Rom 8:20) so we can come to learn righteousness(Is 29:6; Hab 1:12) through the judgments of God.

Ok, I re-read that section and I just can't see where it might come across as Lucifer has some freewill. Could you give me exactly the sentence(s) where it gave you that impression. I do acknowledge that I'm not skilled in writing and can see that it is possible. So I would appreciate you could show me where.



OK. Let’s do define what is freewill.


Maybe we can take as an example our freewill in regards to our salvation. Most Christian believes that we are the one that choose to follow Jesus and come to Jesus by our own freewill. However, is this biblically correct? It doesn’t matter what we think, what’s important is what is the truth in all of this.


Here’s are some quotes I got from another SDA forum in a freewill discussion that I partook. These are words from SDAs defining their perception of their freewill in regards to salvation :

1. God has given the "choice" to serve him to every being in His vast universe. This was what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden. Eve "chose" to listen to and then believe satan over God. Then Adam "chose" to suffer the fate of doing so with Eve.


2. "Unfortunately, most individuals choose to follow their carnal nature, instead of denying themselves for the greater good of others.


3. "They(the disciples) already had a love for the truth, and a hatred for the injustice of the superstitions, and traditions and the authority of men."


4. Meaning they either choose God or their own sinful ways


5. I personally believe that everyone gets on the right path, at some point. But most of them don't stay on for very long. That is not God's choice. It's their choice.


6. It's a whole lifetime of choices, that makes us who we are. The more you choose to sew to the spirit, the stronger your faith will be to endure temptation.


7. The iniquity came from Lucifer. It started with him, because of his decisions, not Gods:


8. If we don't make the choice, and are not willing to do the works, then we will be lost.


9. Every action has too parts. Choice and action.


10. The bible is very clear that there is NO EXCUSE for sin and that God will in nowise clear the guilty.


11. That question is: "Which authority will we obey?" That is the bottom line. This is the choice free moral agents are faced with. The smart choice is to obey the source of all wisdom


12. The individual's final choice of whether they will obey God or not, lies with the individual and the individual alone."


13. You choose now who you will serve God or satan? Its still your choice my friends."


14. God created we human beings with a free will, He does not force any to accept the gift of salvation. ….They are lost because they chose not to be saved.


15. The Bible says that Christ, if He is lifted up will "draw" all men to Himself. All will be drawn, but all will not be saved because many "despise" the gift freely given.


16. We "accept" the free gift and become "reconciled" to Him. He always initiates salvation.


17. So we choose to accept or reject God's grace.


18. It's a very sobering time, we live in. We have to make the right choices.


19. He said before the foundations of the world were laid he knew his elect. That does not mean that he hand picked them out of a list of people. It simply means that he knew who would choose to serve him. Just because he knows who will obey does not mean that he in anyway affects who will choose him. Eventhough he knows that people will not obey he still allows them to make that choice.


20. People set their own destinies, by the choices they make, and the paths they choose to follow.


21. God has granted each one of us a free will and we therefore choose whether we accept Christ, whether we stay with Christ and whether we die in Christ - whether we listen to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit. So, God's intention is that all should be saved - all humans are predestined to salvation in that sense - it is just down to us to make the decisions.


22. He chose us, all of us, to be saved - if we desire it.

Elle, it seems to me that without free will, we cannot love. How would we be able to love without free will?

Hi Tom, I appreciate you bring your perspective to this important question of freewill.

First, your question assumes we have some inherent ability to love. Do you believe that man has an inherent ability to Love? Could you quote me from the Bible, how it defines love and what is man's true ability to produce this?

Elle, you showed what others thought was free will. Is that what you believe such as, choosing to serve God or choosing their own sinful ways?

??????


Kland you ask me for an example of freewill. I gaved you what people like yourself believe. I gaved you 22 example statement of freewill. I never said that I believe these are true. ???


I’m not following you? I hope we’re not going to go through what we went through the last time we had a discussion together!?! If you have something to say, please just be straight forward and as clear as possible.


Here is the quotes of our conversation.



Now are any of my examples statement any good? Can you define what you believe freewill is for us?

Also could you please reply to my question bolded and underline below:

If you're talking about agape, I don't believe man has an inherent ability to do that, but that agape comes from God as a gift. However, ordinary love, like a man loves a woman (or vice versa), or loving one's parents or one's children, I think it's obvious we have the ability to do that. I don't think we need to prove that from Scripture. Or do you disagree?