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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13279
05/04/05 08:52 PM
05/04/05 08:52 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old T:Of course it's useless to try to detach God's glory from God. God's glory is His goodness, His character. That's what destroys the wicked. R:The fact that God’s glory destroys the wicked means God destroys the wicked. The fact that God’s glory kills the wicked means God kills the wicked. That’s what I’m trying to say. How can someone deny that God kills the wicked? T:If what you mean by "God kills the wicked" is "the glory of God (that is, His goodness, His character -- the same thing that gives life to the wicked) destroys the wicked," I'll buy that. That's not how I would choose to put it, but if that's what you mean, OK. Old T:The same thing that gives life to the righteous kills the wicked. This could hardly be a literal lake of fire, could it? R:God’s glory and a literal lake of fire are not incompatible. God’s glory sets the earth on fire and at the same time acts (as His wrath) on the interior of the sinner. T:This seems plausible to me. I don't have a problem with this interpretation, given that the same thing (God's glory) which slays the wicked is giving life to the righteous.
T:It was not an act of power that destroys the wicked.
R:“It is not an act of arbitrary power” is very different from “It is not an act of power”.
Tom: I disagree. She makes the point over and over again that force is not of God's government, but rather of Satan's. If God destroyed Satan by an act of power rather than Satan's being destroyed as "the inevitable result of sin" because he so hardened himself against God's spirit that he made his own character such that God's presence would be a consuming fire, so that God's glory rather than giving him life, as it does for the righteous, destroys him, then such an act of power would be arbitrary. That's her point. It seems to me you are agreeing with me in principle, as I have agree with the scenario you lined out above.
R: Power will be exercised in the destruction of the wicked, but not arbitrary power:
“God has given to men a declaration of his character, and of his method of dealing with sin. 'The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty.' [EX. 34:6, 7.] 'All the wicked will he destroy.' 'The transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off.' [PS. 145:20; 37:38.] The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being." {GC 541}
T: The power will be God's glory, given that it's the light of God's glory, which gives life to the righteous, which destroys the wicked. It's not some arbitrary power which isn't connected with His being Himself -- which is good, "merciful, long-suffering and benevolent."
Old T:If the only reason a sinner dies is because God does something to kill him, like throw him into a literal lake of fire, this could hardly be characterized at the "inevitable result of sin." This would be "the inevitable result of God's throwing them into a lake of fire." There's a big difference between these two things.
R: Of course not. If a criminal is condemned to death, his death is the inevitable result of his crime, before being the inevitable result of the means used to execute the penalty.
T: That's not her point. If you read through what she wrote, she's not talking about about the process of being judge, condemned and executed at all. She's talking about the *means* of the destruction. *That's* what's the "inevitable result of sin" -- not being condemned/judged (which, again, isn't being discussed).
Let's return to this:
quote:
God’s glory and a literal lake of fire are not incompatible. God’s glory sets the earth on fire and at the same time acts (as His wrath) on the interior of the sinner.
You seem to be saying here that it is God's glory which destroys the wicked. If you agree that this same glory, which destroys the wicked, gives life to the righteous, I think we're in agreement (which is more fun). Que que voce acha?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13280
05/04/05 10:40 PM
05/04/05 10:40 PM
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Senior Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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Tom,
I havent read through all of the posts on this thread but just in case nobody has mentioned the withered fig tree...
Christ uttered the words, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforth forever," presently "the fig tree withered away."
It was JESUS Himself who commanded that no fruit would grow on that tree anymore and the fig tree withered away. Thats wasn't Satan doing that.
The Desire of Ages, page 582, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: A Doomed People
Christ uttered against it a withering curse. "No man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever," He said. The next morning, as the Saviour and His disciples were again on their way to the city, the blasted branches and drooping leaves attracted their attention. "Master," said Peter, "behold, the fig tree which Thou cursedst is withered away."
Christ's act in cursing the fig tree had astonished the disciples. It seemed to them unlike His ways and works. Often they had heard Him declare that He came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. They remembered His words, "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56. His wonderful works had been done to restore, never to destroy. The disciples had known Him only as the Restorer, the Healer. This act stood alone. What was its purpose? they questioned.
God "delighteth in mercy." "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Micah 7:18; Ezek. 33:11. To Him the work of destruction and the denunciation of judgment is a "strange work." Isa. 28:21. But it is in mercy and love that He lifts the veil from the future, and reveals to men the results of a course of sin.
....Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13281
05/05/05 03:39 AM
05/05/05 03:39 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Although the fig tree wasn't mentioned, I am well aware of it. Christ's life was so obviously non-violent and non-destructive, that there's only two possible events one who wishes to hold to a destructive, vengeful, violent view of God can cling to: 1) Christ's cursing the fig tree. 2) Christ's chansing out the money-changers. However, both of these episodes, upon further investigation, do not support the idea of a vengeful, destructive, violent God. The cursing of the fig tree was an object lesson for Israel. You quoted this: quote:
He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. [u]They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others.[/u]
She talks about the descruction of Israel in great detail in the first chapter of The Great Controversy. In this chapter, she writes the following:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35, 36)
Here the principles are clearly laid out of which the cursing of the fig tree was an object lesson:
1) When God is rejected, He leaves.
2) When God departs, His protection departs with Him.
3) When Satan takes over, chaos ensues.
4) Satan then blames the chaos which he caused upon God.
Satan's whole strategy, from the very beginning, has to misrepresent God, and get people to think God is like he (Satan) is. It's truly distressing how successful he has been at it.
quote:
he very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. (ST 1/20/90)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13282
05/05/05 12:02 PM
05/05/05 12:02 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
We are in agreement about most things. The point we do not seem to be in agreement is God’s role in the destruction of sin. To me God will put an end to sin and sinners, while your position seems to be that sin and sinners will put an end to themselves.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13283
05/06/05 02:05 AM
05/06/05 02:05 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Here's a powerful quote Claudia posted elsewhere:
PK 499, 500
In the annals of human history, the growth of nations, the rise and fall of empires, appear as if dependent on the will and prowess of man; the shaping of events seems, to a great degree, to be determined by his power, ambition, or caprice. But in the word of God the curtain is drawn aside, and we behold, above, behind, and through all the play and counterplay of human interest and power and passions, the agencies of the All-merciful One, silently, patiently working out the counsels of His own will. {PK 499.4}
In the end, the vengeance and justice of God will be satisfied:
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13284
05/06/05 04:31 AM
05/06/05 04:31 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom,
We are in agreement about most things. The point we do not seem to be in agreement is God’s role in the destruction of sin. To me God will put an end to sin and sinners, while your position seems to be that sin and sinners will put an end to themselves.
One could look at it either way. There are quotes in both the Scripture and the Spirit of Prophesy which present both perspectives.
The key point, it seems to me, is that the same thing which gives life to the righteous is that which slays the wicked. (DA 108) If we have that point fixed, I think we'll see the destruction of the wicked in the right light.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13285
05/06/05 09:10 AM
05/06/05 09:10 AM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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"Bob was told by his boss at the local Garden and Nursery shop to fetch a box of seeds from the old metal shed out in back of the store. Bob knew that no one had gone into that shed for years, and it looked a sore sight from the outside, all weathered and blistered. But when he got the jammed door open finally, he had to hold his nose: the inside was full of slime mold and wierd mushrooms that had festered in the dark dampness.
'Sorry boss; that old shed is overun with mold and fungus. It's covered everything and I'm afraid those flower seeds are ruined.'
After a little thought, the boss took Bob back to the shed and instructed him to tear off the roof, just the roof. Bob, puzzled, got to it, but thought his boss was insane.
After 3 weeks of warm spring sunshine and showers, Bob's boss took him back to the shed, and pried open the door. Lo and behold, the shed was packed to the roof with millions of bright and colorful flowers. The mushrooms and mold had all withered and vanished and the boxes had turned to mulch, a perfect starter bed for the store's new crop of potted flowers!"
That's how God's glory kills and yet gives life.
To the mushrooms, the open sky was a "lake of fire".
To the flower seeds, it was "the glory of His face."
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13286
05/06/05 10:39 AM
05/06/05 10:39 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom,
This point seems to be just a small detail, but it affects one's whole perspective of things. That's why our views about the law, about the cross, and about justification are essentially different.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13287
05/07/05 04:13 AM
05/07/05 04:13 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The way I see things is that everything stems from God's character. God is unselfish. That's the defining characteristice of Him and the underlying principle of His government. God is good, kind, and gracious, which stem from His being unselfish. quote:
"Unselfishness, the principle of God's kingdom, is the principle that Satan hates; its very existence he denies. From the beginning of the great controversy he has endeavored to prove God's principles of action to be selfish, and he deals in the same way with all who serve God. To disprove Satan's claim is the work of Christ and of all who bear His name. It was to give in His own life an illustration of unselfishness that Jesus came in the form of humanity. And all who accept this principle are to be workers together with Him in demonstrating it in practical life. To choose the right because it is right; to stand for truth at the cost of suffering and sacrifice--"this is the heritage of the
servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 54:17 (Ed 154, 155)
Selfishness began in heaven with Satan. It has always been Satan's purpose to vest God with his own attributes, to make others think of God as cruel, harsh, arbitrary, severe and unforgiving. Satan wants us to view God as a being like himself.
When he tempted eve, he appealed to her along selfish lines, and presented God as selfish. When Eve bought into his lies, and Adam, they began to view God as Satan had portrayed Him. Thus they ran and hid. They no longer trusted God. How could He win back their trust?
There was only one way. God must become a man himself, visible and familiar to man's eyes, in order to set man right and keep him right. He must reveal the truth about His character so that man might be healed from the damage which came about from Satan's lies, the fall, and sin.
The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God's character, and thus set man right with God. When we see the truth about God, we are healed, set right with God.
Is there anything here you disagree with?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13288
05/07/05 04:04 PM
05/07/05 04:04 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Phil N. D'blanc. Do you mean "fill in the blank" or "fill in the white"?
Sister White wrote about "appeasing" the wrath of God. To some this sounds harsh, but to God, and the unfallen angels, it makes sense. The retribution, the vengeance, and the punishment inflicted upon the unsaved, in the lake of fire, are justified in Christ. "In the retribution inflicted upon the ungrateful husbandmen was portrayed the doom of those who should put Christ to death." (DA 596)
EW 51
The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}
EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}
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