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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13269
05/02/05 03:34 PM
05/02/05 03:34 PM
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Regarding the Biblical quotes posted by Rosangela, do you really believe the things written were God's active will? Or could it be in the same sense as divorce, where Jesus said,
"They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." (Matt. 19:7, 8)
The underlying question we need to consider is, "What is God like?" Is God really good, as He has presented Himself is Jesus? Or is that a farce, and He is actually cruel and arbitrary, as the enemy has presented Him?
Is it really true that force is not a principle of God's government, as the Spirit of Prophesy often affirmed? Or is force an integral part of God's government, which He falls back on when the gentler methods of love, mercy and compassion don't work?
Is it really true that God is like Jesus?
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13270
05/02/05 05:18 PM
05/02/05 05:18 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding the Spirit of Prophesy, here is what she writes in "The Destruction of Jerusalem" quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)
I would like to reiterate, in case this point is lost, although I have stated it many times, that I have been discussing the final judgment in my statements regarding God's wrath.
Notice that she writes "He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest." Now note the following:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
The principle is clear. God will not force the will. He allows those who have rejected Him to suffer the consequences of their choice. This is His wrath.
The consequences of their choice is that they form characters so out of harmony with God's character that His presence is to them a consuming fire, so much so that His glory, which gives life to the righteous, destroys them.
It appears here, as in so many cases, we have several models by which we can look at God, and at the final judgment. We can look at in a cruel, arbitrary light, or as God giving those who reject Him to the results of their choice.
It's similar to considering if God will torture those who reject Him all eternity or not. If one wants to see God that way, there are certainly many texts which will allow for that.
Another example would be the question of whether salvation is by faith alone in Christ or not. If one want to believe that it's not, one can certainly find evidence for that point of view as well.
The bottom line in all of these questions is, what does such and such a point of view tell us about God? Does it uplift Him? Does it present His character in a positive way, as one who is good and kind, merciful, compassionate, gracious and generous? One who is like Jesus? Or does it make Him come across as One who is arbitrary, cruel, harsh, and severe? We should remember that the enemies plan is to present God in a false light so that we will be afraid of Him.
quote:
Satan sought to intercept every ray of light from the throne of God. He sought to cast his shadow across the earth, that men might lose the true views of God's character, and that the knowledge of God might become extinct in the earth.
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13271
05/02/05 09:41 PM
05/02/05 09:41 PM
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Brazil
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"When the LORD your God shall bring you into the land where you go to possess it, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, and the LORD your God shall deliver them before you, you shall crush them, completely destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them" (Deut. 7:1,2).
Does this look like a permission?
Please pay attention again to the explanation given by Ellen White:
“It is one of the greatest deceptions that can come upon the mind to imagine ourselves more merciful or just than God. ... Had the Lord spared the inhabitants of Canaan, the Israelites would have been in constant danger of contamination. ...Hence the repeated command addressed to them, to dispossess the Canaanites, by every means in their power, and as fast as they were able to subdue them. The Israelites were not to yield to cowardice, sloth, or self-indulgence, nor to set up their ideas of clemency in opposition to the command of God. ...God knew the dangers to which his people would be exposed. Satan would work through those corrupt idolaters to destroy Israel. ... The apparent severity of God's dealings with the Canaanites did not, as many suppose, proceed from harshness or cruelty. The love of God is beyond our comprehension; it is high as the heavens, and broad as the universe. Every soul whom he has created is precious in his sight,-- so precious that he gave his only begotten Son to die for that lost, perishing sinner. When men shall manifest toward their fellow-creatures a love superior to this, then they may talk of compassion where God has exercised severity.” {ST, January 13, 1881}
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13272
05/02/05 11:10 PM
05/02/05 11:10 PM
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Active Member 2012
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I would repeat the point of my two previous posts. We are presenting texts which are in apparent disagreement with one another. From Scriptue we have: 1)God's wrath is His giving people up to the result of their choice. 2)God is like Jesus. We also have: 1)God's wrath is His torturing and killing people. 2)God is nothing like Jesus. From the Spirit of Prophesy we have: 1)God's wrath is His giving people up the result of their choice. 2)God is like Jesus. 3)Force is not a principle of God's government. 4)God is not severe, harsh, arbitrary or cruel, as the enemy has presented him to be. 1)God's wrath is torturing and killing people. 2)God is not at all like Jesus. 3)Force is a principle of God's government -- in fact, the defining principle of God's government. 4)God is severe, harsh, cruel and arbitrary, as the enemy has presented Him to be. From what I've been reading from the responses, there's no disagreement with the points I've made. That is, there is agreement that God's wrath is I have expressed it. The disagreement is over the idea that this is a general principle. The idea is that *sometimes* God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their sin, but this isn't a complete discription. Sometimes it is God's active choice to torture and kill. Please keep in mind that the subject we are discussing (at least that I am discussing) is the judgment of the wicked. How are they destroyed? According to the Spirit of Prophesy, it is the "light of the glory of God" which destroys the wicked. (DA 108) Their death is like the death of Christ. (2T something, also DA 753 or so, and other places). She explicitly relates the death of the wicked to the destruction of Jerusalem, making the specific point that it is due, not to an "act of power of God," but as "the inevitable result of sin". She points out that God could have destroyed Satan as easily as one casts a pebble, but didn't do so for two reasons: 1)Force is contrary to the principle of God's government. 2)If He had done so, onlookers would have misunderstood Satan + friends death as something God did rather than as the inevitable result of sin. I cannot see how simply waiting a couple of thousand years changes either 1) or 2). Either force is not a principle of God's government, or it is. Time doesn't change this. Similarly, if the reason God didn't kill Satan was so it wouldn't be misunderstood as something He did rather than being the inevitable result of sin, killing Satan later rather than sooner wouldn't change this. In fact, it doesn't make any sense to say that God waited for the purpose of showing something not to be so, if in reality the thing is so! So there appear to be two solutions. One is to tack together the apparently contradictory pictures of God and statements from inspiration, or to interpret the apparently contradictory ones in the light of the other ones. I don't see how one can put together the contradictory statements without winding up with contradictions, so I opt for the principle of explaining apparently contradictory statements in the light of other statements, which is something we do all the time. For example, consider the following statement: quote:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
How do we understand this? Are the wicked literally cast into a lake of fire where they are tormented for ever and ever? None of us thinks this. We compare Scripture with Scripture and say that "for ever and ever" doesn't mean what we normally think of as forever and ever, but rather some small amount of time (a matter of days, from SOP). So I see no reason why we can't do the same thing with the other statements we are considering.
I should have mentioned a principle early on, which is that God is often presented as doing that which He permits. For example, Isaiah says "I create evil." It says that God killed Saul, that He caused David to number Israel, when we know that Saul killed himself and Satan moved David to number Israel. God sent lying spirits to Ahab is another example. God "made" a covenant with Israel, when they were the ones the formed it based on unbelief. There are many examples of the principle in Scripture.
Keeping this principle in mind, it is not a difficult thing to do to harmonize apparently contradictory statements in Scripture. Above all, as we study God's character, we should bear in mind that the whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God's character. If we would understand what God is like, we should look to Jesus.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13273
05/03/05 11:26 AM
05/03/05 11:26 AM
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Brazil
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Removing Satan’s life would not be an arbitrary act on the part of God, but it would give the universe the impression that it was so, because the inhabitants of the universe at that time didn’t have a knowledge of all the facts. That’s why God refrained from doing that:
“Even the loyal angels did not fully discern his [Satan's] character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God's goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character.”--COL 72
After the entrance of sin, the choice for God has always been between an evil and a lesser evil. Letting Satan live was an evil, but taking his life at that time could cause a greater evil. Therefore, God chose the first option. Now, that the universe is already in possession of all the facts, the options for God are either letting Satan and his followers continue living or putting an end to their lives. Removing life is a strange act for God; it goes against His nature. But it is a lesser evil than letting sinful beings live for ever in misery and suffering, besides the potential risk of someone else be led into sin.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13274
05/03/05 05:41 PM
05/03/05 05:41 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Removing Satan’s life would not be an arbitrary act on the part of God, but it would give the universe the impression that it was so, because the inhabitants of the universe at that time didn’t have a knowledge of all the facts. That’s why God refrained from doing that:
No, this isn't the point she was making (in the quote I was referring to). The point she makes is that had God allowed Satan to experience the "inevitable results of sin" (which is to be destroyed by God's glory, which is reaping the results of what had been sown) then *that* event would have been misunderstood as God's destroying Satan, and *that* is what would have created an evil seed of doubt.
Here's the quote:
quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13275
05/03/05 09:29 PM
05/03/05 09:29 PM
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Brazil
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quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
quote:
then *that* event would have been misunderstood as God's destroying Satan
Misunderstood as God’s destroying Satan? What would be misunderstood was the reason for God’s destroying Satan _ that this was the inevitable result of sin.
But it’s a useless effort to try detaching God’s glory from God, as if God’s destroying and His glory’s destroying were two completely different things.
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13276
05/03/05 09:53 PM
05/03/05 09:53 PM
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God cast Satan down to hell, when he rebelled in heaven, where he is reserved in chains and darkness until the day of judgment, until the cup of God's indication is poured out without mixture. Satan's judgment is going to be a whole lot worse than it would have been if God had destroyed him immediately, a long time ago, when he was first cast down to hell. Not only will the angels understand why, but they will also praise God and rejoice over the death of Satan.
Job
21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job
38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
38:23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
2 Peter
2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Jude
1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jeremiah
10:10 But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
Revelation
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13277
05/04/05 03:26 AM
05/04/05 03:26 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
then *that* event would have been misunderstood as God's destroying Satan.
R: Misunderstood as God’s destroying Satan? What would be misunderstood was the reason for God’s destroying Satan _ that this was the inevitable result of sin.
But it’s a useless effort to try detaching God’s glory from God, as if God’s destroying and His glory’s destroying were two completely different things.
Tom: Of course it's useless to try to detach God's glory from God. God's glory is His goodness, His character. That's what destroys the wicked. "The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked." (DA 108) The same thing that gives life to the righteous kills the wicked. This could hardly be a literal lake of fire, could it?
The logic in the paragraph in DA 764 is the following:
1)It was not an act of power that destroys the wicked.
2)They are destroyed because they separate themselves from God, who is alone the source of life.
3)Satan and all those who align themselves with him for characters so out of harmony with God that He his very presence (that is, His glory, His character) becomes to them a consuming fire.
4)The glory of God destroys them.
5)God could have allowed this to happen earlier, but it would have been misunderstood as God doing it (i.e. as an arbitrary act of power from God, rather than the "inevitable results of sin")
6)This would have caused an evil seed of doubt to arise, as God's creatures would have served Him out of fear, rather than out of love.
If the only reason a sinner dies is because God does something to kill him, like thought him into a literal lake of fire, this could hardly be characterized at the "inevitable result of sin." This would be "the inevitable result of God's throwing them into a lake of fire." There's a big difference between these two things.
The Spirit of Prophesy is not dealing with the reason for God's destroying Satan. She not talking about this at all in the paragraphs in DA 764, and denies that it is an act of power of God that destroys Satan, declaring instead that it is "the glory of God" (which is His goodness, His character) and "the inevitable results of sin."
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
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Re: Behold the Lamb
#13278
05/04/05 11:36 AM
05/04/05 11:36 AM
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quote:
Of course it's useless to try to detach God's glory from God. God's glory is His goodness, His character. That's what destroys the wicked.
The fact that God’s glory destroys the wicked means God destroys the wicked. The fact that God’s glory kills the wicked means God kills the wicked. That’s what I’m trying to say. How can someone deny that God kills the wicked?
quote:
The same thing that gives life to the righteous kills the wicked. This could hardly be a literal lake of fire, could it?
God’s glory and a literal lake of fire are not incompatible. God’s glory sets the earth on fire and at the same time acts (as His wrath) on the interior of the sinner.
“We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course.” {ST, April 14, 1898}
“When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87}
“The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away.”{GC 674}
quote:
It was not an act of power that destroys the wicked.
“It is not an act of arbitrary power” is very different from “It is not an act of power”. Power will be exercised in the destruction of the wicked, but not arbitrary power:
“God has given to men a declaration of his character, and of his method of dealing with sin. 'The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty.' [EX. 34:6, 7.] 'All the wicked will he destroy.' 'The transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off.' [PS. 145:20; 37:38.] The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being." {GC 541}
quote:
If the only reason a sinner dies is because God does something to kill him, like thought him into a literal lake of fire, this could hardly be characterized at the "inevitable result of sin." This would be "the inevitable result of God's throwing them into a lake of fire." There's a big difference between these two things.
Of course not. If a criminal is condemned to death, his death is the inevitable result of his crime, before being the inevitable result of the means used to execute the penalty.
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