M: The idea that Paul described “men who held the truth in unrighteousness, men who know that which may be known of God, even his eternal power and Godhead" but who never once held “the truth” faithfully, who never once “believed and lived by faith” - well, this idea seems very unlikely to me.

T: These are the class of the "disobedient" that EGW refers to; whether Jew or Gentile, backslidden or not, this passage applies.

M: Which truths are excluded in the phrase “that which may be known of God”?

T: Explicitly, none. Truths were included, not excluded.

M: Does "that which may be known of God” imply they knew the truth about the 10Cs?

T: Paul didn't address this here.

M: The idea that Paul described “men who held the truth in unrighteousness, men who know that which may be known of God, even his eternal power and Godhead" but who never once held “the truth” faithfully, who never once “believed and lived by faith” - well, this idea seems very unlikely to me.

T: These are the class of the "disobedient" that EGW refers to; whether Jew or Gentile, backslidden or not, this passage applies.

M:As it applies to backslidden Jews and Christians, well, the very fact they are backslidden makes it clear they were once faithful. It doesn't make sense to say they backslid from disobedience.

M: Which truths are excluded in the phrase “that which may be known of God”?

T: Explicitly, none. Truths were included, not excluded.

M: Does "that which may be known of God” imply they knew the truth about the 10Cs?

T: Paul didn't address this here.

M:Were the 10Cs excluded? That is, when the backslidden Jews and Christians acquired “that which may be known of God” did it include the 10Cs?

M: Jesus helps people who possess unsanctified human faculties to perform genuine, godly good works.

T: I have said over and over again that I've made no comment regarding this. You couldn't possibly know what I think about this, because I haven't said. I haven't even thought about it. You have absolutely no basis upon which to make any assertions regarding what I think about this.

M: Will you ever address it?

T: Yes, probably.

M: Is it time yet?

T: I still haven't gotten an answer to one of the two questions I've been trying to ask you for 2 or 3 week, so, no, not yet.

M: Which sinful habits and practices are excluded in the phrase "the old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up"? Which sinless habits and practices are excluded in the phrase “those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ”?

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? I can think back on my own experience in regards to what wasn't revealed to me at the time of conversion. This was a long time ago, but something that comes to mind is saying things hurtful to others without being aware of it. Someone brought this to my attention, and I started trying to pay attention to this. Also I already provided you a list just recently. You can refer back to that.

M: Actually, I believe “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” {SC 29.1}

Ellen often wrote about people who fail to experience a genuine, thorough conversion. Sometimes she blames it on the minister, and other times she blames it on the person. Are you aware of those kinds of passages? In the following passage she goes into great detail about it: (quote omitted by Tom) Does the passage above describe the preparation you received prior to baptism?

T: I was converted before being baptized.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

T: How do you understand these verses?

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? (This is the third time I'm asking this; please answer it).

M: I realize you didn’t know I believe “people can experience rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.” Thank you for bearing this in mind as we continue to study. I agree with you the Holy Spirit reveals representative sins rather than the millions of individual sins they have committed throughout their life.

T: Glad we agree on this. Now this is even though the SOP says that "every sin" is revealed. The same principle applies in regards to the judgment (we're discussing this on another thread, but I thought it bore mentioning here).

True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}

The want of this necessary preparation will shut out the greater portion of young professors, for they will not labor earnestly and zealously enough to obtain that rest that remains for the people of God. They will not honestly confess their sins, that they may be pardoned and blotted out. These sins in a short time will be revealed in just their enormity. God's eye does not slumber. He knows every sin that is hidden from mortal eye. The guilty know just what sins to confess that their souls may be clean before God. Jesus is now giving them opportunity to confess, to repent in deep humility, and purify their lives by obeying and living out the truth. Now is the time for wrongs to be righted and sins to be confessed, or they will appear before the sinner in the day of God's wrath. {1T 155.3}

What does God speak to us at this time? He says: "And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Let the purifying process go on in every soul. Pray that every sin may be revealed, that the corruption of the heart may be made plain; and when it is exposed, pray for grace to put away defilement. Make wrongs right between you and your brethren; and when you do your part, God will not fail to do his part. Why delay? Why go on in weakness? Why not cast your soul in all its helplessness upon Christ, and lay hold on the merits of his precious blood? He waits to receive you. He longs to help you. And when the soul temple is cleansed from every defilement, you will have a new and precious experience. {ST, January 6, 1890}

MM, here is one of the two points I've been asking about (we're discussing the other one, which is Romans 1):



I'm trying to understand how it is that at first you disagreed with my assertion that one can only do good works with the help of God, using the statement that a selfish heart can perform generous actions, and then proved my case for my by citing the SOP statement saying that one cannot do good works without power from outside of one self, and then switched to arguing that an unsanctified person cannot do good works at all, when before you were arguing that atheists could do such good works without God's help. Surely an atheist is an unsactified person, right?

So which is it? Can an atheist do good works without God's help, or can unsanctified person NOT do good works?

Once again, we started out the discussion with me saying that no person could do good works apart from God's help. You disagreed with this, saying that an atheist, for example (this was your example) could independently do good works. You quoted from the SOP, the statement that a selfish heart could perform generous actions, to support your view.

Afterward you cited a statement from the SOP which contradicted your view, and supported my view, which said that man cannot do good works without a power outside of himself. So what I said was verified, and what you said was contradicted, but you've yet to recognize this.

While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, yet we cannot be saved without obedience. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will he save us in disobedience to law. {ST, July 21, 1890 par. 7}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1}

M: The idea that Paul described “men who held the truth in unrighteousness, men who know that which may be known of God, even his eternal power and Godhead" but who never once held “the truth” faithfully, who never once “believed and lived by faith” - well, this idea seems very unlikely to me.

T: These are the class of the "disobedient" that EGW refers to; whether Jew or Gentile, backslidden or not, this passage applies.

M: As it applies to backslidden Jews and Christians, well, the very fact they are backslidden makes it clear they were once faithful. It doesn't make sense to say they backslid from disobedience.

T: It's referring to the "disobedient," so whether they were backslidden or not doesn't matter.

M: Which truths are excluded in the phrase “that which may be known of God”?

T: Explicitly, none. Truths were included, not excluded.

M: Does "that which may be known of God” imply they knew the truth about the 10Cs?

T: Paul didn't address this here.

M: Were the 10Cs excluded? That is, when the backslidden Jews and Christians acquired “that which may be known of God” did it include the 10Cs?

T: Paul didn't address this here.

M:Yes, of course, people who experience genuine, thorough conversion, in harmony with God's appointed way (as described in the passage I posted above), do so before they are baptized and join the church. Indeed, genuine, thorough conversion is a prerequisite for baptism. Baptism testifies to the fact. Thus, my question remains unanswered - Does the passage above describe the experience and preparation you received prior to baptism? Please extract statements from the quote that describe what you experienced leading up to and including the moment you were converted. Also, please extract statements that did not happen by the time you experienced rebirth. Thank you.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

T: How do you understand these verses?

M:Nowhere in the Bible does it describe people experiencing rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. The rebirth and conversion described in the Bible portrays people who learn to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. The passages you posted above are no exception. In such cases, the Holy Spirit does not wait to reveal certain sinful habits and practices because He fears they will refuse to embrace Jesus.

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? (This is the third time I'm asking this; please answer it).

Did you forget the following exchange:

These passages make it clear both happens, that is, specific sins and representative sins are alike confessed and revisited in judgment.

M: Yes, of course, people who experience genuine, thorough conversion, in harmony with God's appointed way (as described in the passage I posted above and omitted by Tom), do so before they are baptized and join the church. Indeed, genuine, thorough conversion is a prerequisite for baptism. Baptism testifies to the fact. Thus, my question remains unanswered - Does the passage above describe the experience and preparation you received prior to baptism? Please extract statements from the quote that describe what you experienced leading up to and including the moment you were converted. Also, please extract statements that did not happen by the time you experienced rebirth. Thank you.

T: If you're talking about SC 29.1, I don't think that's talking about baptism.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

T: How do you understand these verses?

M: Nowhere in the Bible does it describe people experiencing rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. The rebirth and conversion described in the Bible portrays people who learn to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. The passages you posted above are no exception. In such cases, the Holy Spirit does not wait to reveal certain sinful habits and practices because He fears they will refuse to embrace Jesus.

T: How do you understand the passages I cited? I really had no intent that you would relate them to something else. I wasn't thinking about the things you spoke of when I asked that question. I just wanted to know how you understand the passages I cited.

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? (This is the third time I'm asking this; please answer it).

M: Did you forget the following exchange: (omitted by Tom)

T: No, I didn't forget. Indeed, it was because of that exchange that I asked the question. Fourth time now: so we agree on this point, right? The reason I'm asking for clarification is sometimes you say something which makes me think you're agreeing with me, but then after that you say something else which sounds diametrically opposed. For example, earlier I was pointing out that no one could do good works without God's help, and you said athiests could, but then you said that unsanctified people can't do good works.

M: These passages (omitted by Tom) make it clear both happens, that is, specific sins and representative sins are alike confessed and revisited in judgment.

T: The representative sins are specific sins. These aren't two different things.