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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: NJK Project]
#133215
05/04/11 02:57 PM
05/04/11 02:57 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 1,673
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Roseangela: I agree in part with your understanding here. Namely that post 1844 there are no longer applicable time elements in any prophecy that may be fulfilled, even spiritually re-fulfilled post 1844 as per the clear SOP statements towards this. However, as just stated, I indeed do not see that this precludes a typological/spiritual re-fulfillment of the prophecy, as it is seen with the three ways of fulfillment in Christ’s Olivet discourse. The book of revelation also has a Literal (Chapter 2&3), Historical (ca. 4-13:10) and Eschatological (13:11-21) [Ch. 22 = post GC] waves of fulfillment, however, as I substantively see it, certain parts in the other waves can have partial/typological/spiritual fulfillment in the current waves when/as the prophetic/development need/reality is. This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.(7BC 971.7) Many miss the context which should precede the advent of our Lord and read that statement to say: This time, which the angel declares...is...the end...of prophetic time. But a careful study of the Bible proves that prophetic time can be followed in both Daniel and Revelation after 1844. The view that all prophetic time stopped in 1844 makes the Spirit of Prophecy contradict the Scriptures. The Bible is true and the Spirit of Prophecy agrees with it. But human beings that did not understand the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy have erroneously added a private interpretation: a teaching that has crept into the church as if it were truth. The errors that crept into the early church...have never been extinct. They are peculiarly active at the present time, constituting one of the perils of the last days. And God requires us to stand...unflinchingly for the truth. With the love of the truth burning in our hearts, we shall “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.” (ST, January 29, 1885 par. 15) These errors ... although they be hoary with age, yet they have not behind them a “Thus saith the Lord.” For the Lord has said, I will not “alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.” …The Lord has permitted still greater light to shine in these last days ... revealing His law and showing us what is truth. (FE 450.1)
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: Rosangela]
#133217
05/04/11 03:02 PM
05/04/11 03:02 PM
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kland,
Well, I consider that all the occurrences of the 1260 days and similar expressions (3.5 times, 42 months) refer to the same time period.
Of course different numbers would refer to different time periods, although this doesn't mean there can't be some overlapping between them. Let's just understand this part before adding anything else. So, you are saying same numbers refer to same time periods, but different numbers refer to different time periods. Suppose what if, it said in Daniel 12, 1261 days instead of 1260. Would that indicate a different time period? Or how about 1259? How different must the number be before it means a different time period? Contrasting along the same line of reasoning, do all number 7 day time periods refer to the same time period? Ok, I was trying to do an additional contrast, but was having trouble. In Daniel 7:25 we have: Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
and in Daniel 12: Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Which do sound the same phraseology. But when I went to search for all occurrences of Hebrew word for "time", I didn't find both texts. Daniel 7: <`iddan (Aramaic)> Daniel 12: <mow`ed> (Not to address, half <chetsiy>) So, technically, different words were used. We translate the converted word to year, then convert the year to days, and then say they must refer to the exact same time period. Something says something is wrong with that logic. Why is the Bible restricted to when once using a number or a phrase, which can be converted to a number to be converted to a period, it must always and only be used to for that same time period? What if it was intended to be for two different time periods that were very similar in length but due to this unreasonable restriction, it has to use a different number and so is forced to use 1261 days?
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: kland]
#133219
05/04/11 03:18 PM
05/04/11 03:18 PM
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Brazil
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So, you are saying same numbers refer to same time periods, but different numbers refer to different time periods. Suppose what if, it said in Daniel 12, 1261 days instead of 1260. Would that indicate a different time period? Or how about 1259? How different must the number be before it means a different time period? 1261 would indicate a different time period, but it would be only logical to infer that both time periods (1261 and 1260) were related, since they are mentioned in the same chapter, and that there is some overlapping between them, that is, that they begin or end together. In fact, this is the logic used to interpret the 1290 and 1335 days. So, technically, different words were used. Different expressions were also used in "42 months" and "1260 days," however it's logical to infer that they refer to the same time period. Besides, this is due to the fact that chapter 7 was written in Aramaic, while chapters 8-12 were written in Hebrew.
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: Rosangela]
#133220
05/04/11 03:26 PM
05/04/11 03:26 PM
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1261 would indicate a different time period, but it would be only logical to infer that both time periods (1261 and 1260) were related, since they are mentioned in the same chapter, and that there is some overlapping between them, that is, that they begin or end together. In fact, this is the logic used to interpret the 1290 and 1335 days.
No they weren't used in the same chapter. It would be chapter 7 vs chapter 12.
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: Rosangela]
#133221
05/04/11 03:28 PM
05/04/11 03:28 PM
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Ok, let's hold on here so that we are talking about the same thing.
I asked why can't 1260 be two different time frames. Imagine that you are trying to explain the SDA position to an outsider. What would the person think when you said that there is no pattern to interpret an escathological time prophecy - it can be fulfilled once, or twice, or x times, and it can be interpreted using a day for a day, or a year for a day, depending on... what? How should one determine if a number used, should be a day for day or a day for year. There was a thread in which we discussed this. I'll see if I can find it. Dear Rosangela I came to this discussion late. Was working on a manuscript and not getting online much over the past few months. With that in mind, as I read this thread, I perceive that it is problematic to defend a methodology of prophetic interpretation. If the methodology does not explain the prophecy, the problem is not with the prophecy but the methodology. And when the methodology becomes the focus, too often the prophecy is breached to make it fit the explanation. Prophetic errors wrap themselves about bits and pieces of truth. Here is an example: "Thou art this head of gold" Daniel 2. Historisists focus the prophecy on his kingdom, Babylon, and totally miss the local application to the king. "Thou art the tree" Daniel 4. Historisists focus the prophecy on the king and totally miss the application to the kingdom, Babylon. Totally inconsistent. Daniel 2 is explained by faith totally overlooking sight. And Daniel 4 is explained by sight totally overlooking faith. Daniel 2 has a local application to 4 kings and the grandson in Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty. It has a second longterm application that follows the kingdoms (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and 2 Romes). It applies to the degeneration of religion within the kingdoms. It applies to the degeneration of morality as well. And there is a final application specifically closed-up, shut-up, and sealed until after the time of the end began (after 1798-1844). Unfortunately, by embracing the notion that things fulfilled in the past that appear to align with a prophecy are the complete and final fulfillment of the prophecies that have not yet been completely fulfilled or that are on the verge of their final fulfillment - knowledge and light sent from the very throne of Heaven is extinguished when it is needed most.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: NJK Project]
#133222
05/04/11 04:08 PM
05/04/11 04:08 PM
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...the Second Coming is dependent on how faithful the Church is in finishing the work. That is why no time element is to be attached to its fulfillement as it will occur whenever the work is done. Indeed even “Final Events” will not begin to unflinchingly unravel until God supernaturally acts to allow the Four Winds to blow upon the Earth. That God will one day wrap things up by Christ appearance is the non-changing ultimate plan, however there is nothing written in stone as to when, or in which generation of “Believers” it will occur. That is all dependent on when the require Gospel Work is actually completed, and that, inherently, as it thoroughly should be.
That is like saying that Jesus will never come if Satan can keep the Church from preparing. I assure you that God's word (prophecy) is more specific than that. We must cherish and cultivate the faith of which prophets and apostles have testified,--the faith that lays hold on the promises of God, and waits for deliverance in his appointed time and way. The sure word of prophecy will meet its final fulfillment in the glorious advent of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as King of kings and Lord of lords. The time of waiting may seem long; the soul may be oppressed by discouraging circumstances; many in whom confidence has been placed may fall by the way: but with the prophet who endeavored to encourage Judah in a time of unparalleled apostasy, let us confidently declare, "The Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Habakkuk 2:20. Let us ever hold in remembrance the cheering message, "The vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. . . . The just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:3, 4. {RH, July 15, 1915 par. 3} As I read it (and there are many more references like this) Christ's Advent is for an APPOINTED TIME
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: His child]
#133224
05/04/11 04:16 PM
05/04/11 04:16 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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That is how so many SDA's read it. but it is a spiritual weakness to overlook the fact that the development of character revolves around faith. As historicists, they go by sight in what has been done rather than faith in what God says will be done in the endtime. Thus when it takes faith to believe that 1290-days will come to pass in the endtime, they have no faith in that fulfillment, because by sight they see it fulfilled in the past. So when SDA's in the endtime are called upon to develop a character that rests upon the sure word of prophecy and that trusts in the Omnipotent, they struggle with a faith that believes God's word and one that assumes to believe what God has done in the past. I don't get it. How exactly does the fact that a person expects a period of 3.5 years of persecution or whatever to occur in the future affect that person's life?
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: kland]
#133225
05/04/11 04:58 PM
05/04/11 04:58 PM
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No they weren't used in the same chapter. It would be chapter 7 vs chapter 12. You would still have to consider that they are in the same book, so there would be a strong possibility that both periods were related.
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: Charity]
#133232
05/05/11 12:35 AM
05/05/11 12:35 AM
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SDA
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Mark and kland,
I don't see the double fulfillment of time prophecies as having a basis. If you think that the seven trumpets, in the same way as the plagues, weren't yet fulfilled, and that they probably will have a future fulfillment, this is OK to me. What I don't see as OK is saying that they had a historic fulfillment but will have also a future fulfillment. . . Didn't Christ and the prophets speak mainly for the benefit of this generation, the final one? Christ combined two periods when He unfolded earth’s final events in Matthew 24 – the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of human history. But you say, ‘that’s different’. OK. What about Ellen White? She believed that Miller's and Smith's views on the past fulfillment of the trumpets was correct. She endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch on the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet in The Great Controversy. But she saw no inconsistency in urging a future application to the trumpets. But will this convince you Roseangela? “He who has ears to hear, let him/her hear.” By definition, futurism is inconsistent with historicism, but these are human labels and human terms. We need divine principles of study. The ones recommended by Ellen White were used by ‘Father Miller’. The one I’m thinking of from his recommended principles that applies here is that a prophecy is not completely fulfilled until all of it’s particulars have been met. NJK, I wouldn’t paint myself in a corner by saying there are no future time elements. Ellen White’s statements you referenced on this aren’t as sweeping as that. For example, saying that the people will not have another time-based message is not the same as saying there are no future time prophecies period. That's a keeper
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White
[Re: Rosangela]
#133233
05/05/11 12:46 AM
05/05/11 12:46 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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That is how so many SDA's read it. but it is a spiritual weakness to overlook the fact that the development of character revolves around faith. As historicists, they go by sight in what has been done rather than faith in what God says will be done in the endtime. Thus when it takes faith to believe that 1290-days will come to pass in the endtime, they have no faith in that fulfillment, because by sight they see it fulfilled in the past. So when SDA's in the endtime are called upon to develop a character that rests upon the sure word of prophecy and that trusts in the Omnipotent, they struggle with a faith that believes God's word and one that assumes to believe what God has done in the past. I don't get it. How exactly does the fact that a person expects a period of 3.5 years of persecution or whatever to occur in the future affect that person's life? I don't get how the question links to the quote above it. Did something in the context get cut?
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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