27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

T: How do you understand these verses?

M: Nowhere in the Bible does it describe people experiencing rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. The rebirth and conversion described in the Bible portrays people who learn to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. The passages you posted above are no exception. In such cases, the Holy Spirit does not wait to reveal certain sinful habits and practices because He fears they will refuse to embrace Jesus.

T: How do you understand the passages I cited? I really had no intent that you would relate them to something else. I wasn't thinking about the things you spoke of when I asked that question. I just wanted to know how you understand the passages I cited.

M.Please read the third sentence in my response above.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

In the interview with Nicodemus, Jesus unfolded the plan of salvation, and His mission to the world. In none of His subsequent discourses did He explain so fully, step by step, the work necessary to be done in the hearts of all who would inherit the kingdom of heaven.(DA 175,176)

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? (This is the third time I'm asking this; please answer it).

M: Did you forget the following exchange: (omitted by Tom)

T: No, I didn't forget. Indeed, it was because of that exchange that I asked the question. Fourth time now: so we agree on this point, right? The reason I'm asking for clarification is sometimes you say something which makes me think you're agreeing with me, but then after that you say something else which sounds diametrically opposed. For example, earlier I was pointing out that no one could do good works without God's help, and you said athiests could, but then you said that unsanctified people can't do good works.

M:The Holy Spirit reveals specific sins and representative sins.

M: These passages (omitted by Tom) make it clear both happens, that is, specific sins and representative sins are alike confessed and revisited in judgment.

T: The representative sins are specific sins. These aren't two different things.

M:I believe they are two different things.

M: Yes, of course, people who experience genuine, thorough conversion, in harmony with God's appointed way (as described in the passage I posted above and omitted by Tom), do so before they are baptized and join the church. Indeed, genuine, thorough conversion is a prerequisite for baptism. Baptism testifies to the fact. Thus, my question remains unanswered - Does the passage above describe the experience and preparation you received prior to baptism? Please extract statements from the quote that describe what you experienced leading up to and including the moment you were converted. Also, please extract statements that did not happen by the time you experienced rebirth. Thank you.

T: If you're talking about SC 29.1, I don't think that's talking about baptism.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

T: How do you understand these verses?

M: Nowhere in the Bible does it describe people experiencing rebirth before they complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. The rebirth and conversion described in the Bible portrays people who learn to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. The passages you posted above are no exception. In such cases, the Holy Spirit does not wait to reveal certain sinful habits and practices because He fears they will refuse to embrace Jesus.

T: How do you understand the passages I cited? I really had no intent that you would relate them to something else. I wasn't thinking about the things you spoke of when I asked that question. I just wanted to know how you understand the passages I cited.

M. Please read the third sentence in my response above.

T: The third sentence is, "the passages you posted above are no exception." I don't know what you want me to respond to this. Regarding how you view conversion, I see no reference in either the Scriptures nor the SOP to suggest this. I think the explanation of Jesus Christ to Nicodemus is probably the clearest explanation we have of the process. There's no mention there of Nicodemus needing to do everything Jesus Christ had commanded. Here's Ellen White's comment on the incident:


T: She says in no other discourse did Jesus Christ explain so fully, step by step, what was needed. There's no mention here of having to do all that Jesus Christ commanded (assuming this means something different than what He explained to Nicodemus) before one could be converted. To be converted requires responding to the drawing of the Holy Spirit, as described in the above passage.

T: I said the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal everybody's sins at once, because that would be too much. I've said He reveals representative sins. You said you agreed with this. That's correct, isn't it? (This is the third time I'm asking this; please answer it).

M: Did you forget the following exchange: (omitted by Tom)

T: No, I didn't forget. Indeed, it was because of that exchange that I asked the question. Fourth time now: so we agree on this point, right? The reason I'm asking for clarification is sometimes you say something which makes me think you're agreeing with me, but then after that you say something else which sounds diametrically opposed. For example, earlier I was pointing out that no one could do good works without God's help, and you said athiests could, but then you said that unsanctified people can't do good works.

M: The Holy Spirit reveals specific sins and representative sins.

T: I guess it's good you bumped this, so I can ask you the same question a fifth time. I guess I can ask a preliminary question. Are you not answering the question because you don't want to, or because you don't understand it? It seems like a simple question. Previously you said that you agreed with me that the Holy Spirit did not reveal all the millions of sins one had committed over a lifetime, but representative sins instead. Now it seems like you might not be agreeing with this. So the question is if you are agreeing with what was said earlier, or not, that the Holy Spirit does not reveal all the millions of sins one had committed at the time of conversion, but instead reveals representative sins.

M: These passages (omitted by Tom) make it clear both happens, that is, specific sins and representative sins are alike confessed and revisited in judgment.

T: The representative sins are specific sins. These aren't two different things.

M: I believe they are two different things.

T: What do you think a representative sin is, if not a specific sin?

Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of "Selfishness" came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name, were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. Under "Covetousness" came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under "Ambition" came pride and extravagance; "Jealousy" stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and "Intemperance" headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. {LS 241.4}

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

T: How do you understand these verses?

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ.

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone.

God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. Man's judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are. The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the uncalled universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give.

The poor publican who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin. The Pharisee's boastful, self-righteous prayer showed that his heart was closed against the influence of the Holy Spirit. Because of his distance from God, he had no sense of his own defilement, in contrast with the perfection of the divine holiness. He felt no need, and he received nothing.

If you see your sinfulness, do not wait to make yourself better. How many there are who think they are not good enough to come to Christ. Do you expect to become better through your own efforts? "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah 13:23. There is help for us only in God. We must not wait for stronger persuasions, for better opportunities, or for holier tempers. We can do nothing of ourselves. We must come to Christ just as we are.

Also, do you think in Jesus' explanation of rebirth to Nicodemus that He had in mind people nowadays who experience rebirth before they learn the truth about the Sabbath?

If so, why didn't Nicodemus object? I believe the idea that Jesus described rebirth taking place before learning the truth about basic doctrines such as diet and Sabbath-keeping is absurd.

I'm not saying that's what you believe.

A representative sin would be, for example, impatience. A specific sin would be, for example, being impatient when your child doesn't obey immediately.

M: Yes, of course, people who experience genuine, thorough conversion, in harmony with God's appointed way (as described in the passage I posted above and omitted by Tom), do so before they are baptized and join the church. Indeed, genuine, thorough conversion is a prerequisite for baptism. Baptism testifies to the fact. Thus, my question remains unanswered - Does the passage above describe the experience and preparation you received prior to baptism? Please extract statements from the quote that describe what you experienced leading up to and including the moment you were converted. Also, please extract statements that did not happen by the time you experienced rebirth. Thank you.

T: If you're talking about SC 29.1, I don't think that's talking about baptism.

MR No. 373 - Preparation for Baptism

The preparation for baptism is a matter that needs to be carefully considered. The new converts to the truth should be faithfully instructed in the plain, "Thus saith the Lord." The word of the Lord is to be read and explained to them point by point. {6MR 155.1}

All who enter upon the new life should understand, prior to their baptism, that the Lord requires the undivided affections. In the sermon on the mount are given most precious lessons from the lips of the great Teacher. He says, "no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Again he says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarkation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep his commandments and those who love him not and disregard his precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth. We are not only to say, I believe, but to practice the truth. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, soul, body, and spirit. {6MR 155.2}

The question put to Christ by a lawyer was, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" There stood the wily priests and rulers expecting to hear from the lips of Christ an answer that would give them opportunity to condemn him. He who reads every heart as an open book understood their purpose. Turning to the lawyer, Christ said unto him, "What is written in the Law? how readest thou?" He gives him an opportunity to answer his own question. And the lawyer answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: This do, and thou shalt live." Christ will not accept a divided heart. The life of the receiver of truth should witness to the change wrought by the transformation of character. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord." Why? Because they have an indwelling Saviour, who works the mind and heart to reveal that love for Christ which leads them to do his will, not their own. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. {6MR 156.1}

There is need of a much more thorough preparation of the candidates for baptism than has been given them. Satan does not want any one to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the senses, so that true conversion may not take place. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This conformity to the mind and will of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. {6MR 156.2}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need faithful instruction is the subject of dress. In the examination of candidates for baptism this subject should not be lost sight of. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. True conversion of the heart will work wonderful changes in the outward appearance. {6MR 158.1}

There should be no carelessness in dress. Teach the young converts that dress is a talent. For Christ's sake, whose property we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before him. Thus we are taught that the Lord has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolical. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolical. In all things we are to be representatives of him. Good taste should be exercised in the selection of appropriate colors. Our dress should be tidy and well-fitting. The hair should be carefully arranged. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the word of God gives us no sanction in making changes in our apparel merely for the sake of fashion, that we may appear like the world. When the desire for display in dress absorbs the mind, vanity is manifested. All this must be put away. {6MR 158.2}

The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says, "In like manner also, let women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." And through the apostle Peter the instruction is given, "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." {6MR 159.1}

Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array of expensive ornaments. All this display imparts no value to the character. The Lord desires every converted person to put away the idea that dressing as worldlings dress will give value to our influence. The ornamentation of the person with jewels and luxurious things is a species of idolatry. This needless display reveals a love for those things which are supposed to place a value upon the person. It gives evidence to the world of a heart destitute of the inward adornment. Expensive dress and adornments of jewelry give an incorrect representation of the truth that should always be represented as of the highest value. An overdressed, outwardly adorned person bears the sign of inward poverty. A lack of spirituality is revealed. {6MR 159.2}

Extravagance in dress requires the expenditure of means that is needed to advance the work of the Lord. Extra ribbons and bows mean pennies and shillings spent needlessly. The trimming of ladies' hats with high-standing bows is a needless expense, and it is unbecoming to a Christian. In the house of God the overtrimmed hats are a positive annoyance. The congregation desire to see the face of the speaker as well as to hear his voice; but the ladies' hats with their high-standing ribbons and bows, obscure the view. Many in the congregation may be seen peering this way and that to get a glimpse of the speaker; but often their efforts are in vain. Their enjoyment of the service is marred, and the minister, who observes all this, is disturbed. {6MR 160.1}

Satan has a snare laid to captivate unwary souls by leading them to give more attention to the outward adorning than to the inward graces which love of truth and righteousness display as the fruit borne upon the Christian tree. If the enemy can keep the minds of believers centered upon their dress and outward appearance, he is well pleased. They injure their influence, and the cause of truth which they profess to love. {6MR 160.2}

Many indulge a passion for dress. They spend their money for that which is not bread, and are as foolish as was Esau, who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Many bar their own souls from entering the strait gate because they cannot indulge their love for display and yet believe in Christ and walk in his footsteps. {6MR 160.3}

"If any man will come after me," said Christ, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Self denial and self-sacrifice will mark the Christian's life. Evidence that the taste is really converted will be seen in the dress of all who walk the narrow path of holiness, the path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord to walk in. {6MR 160.4}

Christians should not neglect to search the Scriptures on these points. They need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. Those who are earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired of God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. Their dress bears its testimony to their own family, to the church and the world, that they are being purified from vanity and selfishness. They demonstrate that they are not idolaters. {6MR 161.1}

Wherever the grace of humility, a meek and quiet spirit, is cherished, the whole person will express the same. The grace of Christ in the heart finds expression in a dignified, decorous deportment. The truth is manifest in the flesh. And truth lived always has an influence in favor of the truth, testifying of practical godliness. All such experiences are of the highest value. The usefulness of the Christian testifies to the genuineness of his conversion. {6MR 161.2}

As those who claim to believe the truth give expression to the truth in appropriate dress and in their words and conduct, they are living epistles for God, known and read by all who behold them. Their chaste conversation is a sign of the inward adorning. They have enlarged influence; a field of usefulness is ever open before them. They are as signs in the world, perpetuating a saving knowledge of divine truth, as salt that has not lost its savour. {6MR 161.3}

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,"--the same Word that was in the beginning with God, and was God. Through his own life in human nature, Christ has revealed to us his methods of usefulness in saving souls. His character is to be revealed in his followers. The reception of the great testing truths for these last days never makes the receiver coarse and rough and uncourteous, harsh in conversation and spirit. The truth genuinely believed is a reality to the receiver. It never degrades, but always refines, elevates, and ennobles the receiver. Through sanctification of the Spirit it makes him an agency through whom the unseen angels of God work out his holy principles. {6MR 162.1}

The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. Faithful, Christian men and women should have an intense interest to bring the convicted soul to a correct knowledge of righteousness in Christ Jesus. If any have allowed the desire of pleasure or the love of dress to become supreme, so that any portion of their mind, soul, and strength, is devoted to selfish indulgences, the faithful believers should watch for these souls as they that must give an account. They must not neglect the faithful, tender, loving instruction so essential to the young converts, that there may be no half-hearted work. The very first experiences should be right. If those who have been long in the way will try to help the one who is just beginning the Christian course, they will often be as the Lord's living agencies. All who will be true and faithful in the performance of their duty are representatives of Christ, the true Shepherd. If all realized the conflict which each soul must wage with Satanic agencies that are seeking to ensnare and entice and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor done for those who are young in the faith. {6MR 162.2}

The atmosphere of the world is charged with spiritual malaria. All who accept of Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour must count themselves dead to all things in their life conduct that Christ would not approve. These newborn souls seldom have sufficient instruction. They are left too much to themselves, and are often tempted, and do not discern the evil of the temptation. Let these souls newly come to the faith feel that it is their privilege to solicit counsel. If they seek the society of those who can help them, they will soon possess the refined taste that will ever choose the company of those who love and fear God. Our conversation with these souls should be of a spiritual, encouraging character. The Lord marks the conflict of every weak, doubting, struggling soul, and he will help all who call upon him. They will see heaven open before them, and angels of God ascending and descending the ladder of shining brightness which they are trying to climb. {6MR 163.1}

After the believing soul has received the ordinance of baptism, he is to bear in mind that he is dedicated to God, to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. These three all cooperate in the great work of the covenant made by baptism in the sight of the heavenly universe. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit receive the believing soul into covenant relation with God. {6MR 163.2}

All who study the life of Christ and practice his teaching will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. They are established in the faith, and will not be overcome by the devil because of vanity and pride. They seek to walk the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God. Their character exerts an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of his work. {6MR 163.3}

By the reception of the doctrines revealed and the performance of the duties required in the word of God, the professed followers of Christ are to witness to the world of their unity with Christ. They are to show that they have been given to Christ by his Father, and are overcomers through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. They love him who hath redeemed them. They increase in knowledge of Christ through exemplifying his character. And they cherish expectations that will not be disappointed: they expect to see his face and to rejoice in the sunshine of his countenance. {6MR 164.1}

In these thoroughly converted souls the world has a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. Through them Christ makes known to the world his character and will. In the lives of God's children is revealed the blessedness of serving the Lord, and the opposite is seen in those who do not keep his commandments. The line of demarkation is distinct. All who obey God's commandments are kept by his mighty power amid the corrupting influence of the transgressors of his law. From the lowliest subject to the highest in positions of trust, they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. {6MR 164.2}

In his prayer to the Father, Christ says of his followers, "The glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them as thou hast loved me." O what possibilities and probabilities are for God's people if they will humble themselves and exalt the Lord Jesus. {6MR 164.3}

In his prayer the Saviour says further, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." {6MR 165.1}

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the very key that opens to us the portals of heaven, that we may obtain eternal life, an immortal inheritance, and eternal substance. All who have this knowledge are constantly advancing heavenward. They have a good report in their own family, in the church, and in the world.--Ms 56, 1900. ("Preparation for Baptism," typed August 12, 1900.) {6MR 165.2}

The principles of righteousness must be implanted in the soul. The faith must grasp the power of Jesus Christ, else there is no safety. Licentious practices are getting to be as common as in the days before the flood. Not one should be buried with Christ by baptism unless they are critically examined whether they have ceased to sin, whether they have fixed moral principles, whether they know what sin is, whether they have moral defilement which God abhors. Find out by close questioning if these persons are really ceasing to sin, if with David they can say, I hate sin with a perfect hatred.--Letter 26d, 1887, p. 6. (To "Brother Covert and those who hold responsible positions in the Indiana Conference," September 27, 1887.) {6MR 165.3}

My burden is that ministers of the gospel shall preach the truth as to what constitutes true conversion. They are not to lead down into the water souls who are not converted. The church is becoming composed of men and women who have never realized how sinful sin is.--Letter 134, 1899, p. 5. (To "Dear Brethren in America," September 8, 1899). {6MR 166.1}

Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. They have pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the saving of sinners. God asks those who name his name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of my Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in accordance with the momentous claims of eternity?--Ms 63, 1901, p. 8. (Diary, April 30, 1901). {6MR 166.2}

No one is to take part in the solemn ordinance of baptism without giving the subject careful, prayerful thought. The candidates, and especially the youth, are to be carefully instructed in regard to the obligations they assume in taking this step. They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God's service; and the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them.--Ms 118, 1902, pp. 1, 2. ("Christ's Method of Imparting Truth," October 6, 1902). {6MR 166.3}

The world has no claim to our service; for by a solemn, holy covenant we accepted God's badge of service at the time of our baptism. On that occasion we pledged ourselves, in the presence of the three great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate.--Ms 130, 1902, p. 4. (Diary, October 27, 1902). {6MR 167.1}

In receiving baptism, the human agent, inspired with new purposes, pledges himself to die to the world and live in obedience to Christ. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness.--Letter 200, 1902, p. 7. (To Brother and Sister Kress, December 15, 1902). {6MR 167.2}

Our churches are becoming enfeebled by receiving for doctrines the commandments of men. Many are received into the church who are not converted. Men, women, and children are allowed to take part in the solemn rite of baptism without being fully instructed in regard to the meaning of this ordinance. Participation in this ordinance means much, and our ministers should be careful to give each candidate plain instruction in regard to its meaning and its solemnity.--Ms 10, 1905, p. 4. ("Non-essential Subjects to Be Avoided," September 12, 1904.)

Released August 13, 1974. {6MR 167.3}

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27) “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8)

T: Please tell me how you understand these verses. I didn't ask you to comment upon them in relation to other verses, or in relation to anything. I just asked you what you think these verses mean. Please tell me what you think these verses mean (not what they don't mean, but what they mean).

July 4, 1895 Continue in the Son and in the Father.

"Little children, it is the last time; and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." Jesus has left us a warning upon this very point. He said, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." "For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before." John continues, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 1}

These deceivers will come, and, while claiming to be doing a special work for God, while professing to have advanced piety, to be sanctified, to see visions, and to have dreams, they will be doing the work of the enemy, and be found breaking the commandments of God. We should be on our guard, and bring these pretenders to the test; "to the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Shall we take heed to the solemn warnings of Christ, of Paul, and of John upon this point, and not be deceived by the subtle devices of the enemy, for Christ has said that the signs and wonders wrought by these deceivers will be so great that if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect. {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 2}

Of the elect, John writes: "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him; for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him; for they know not the voice of strangers." Those who have heard the voice of God proclaiming his holy law on Mount Sinai, in the hearing of the people, know his voice, and when men claiming to be led by Christ, and professing to be entirely sanctified, assert that the law of God is abolished, and ridicule and make light of the great moral standard, and set at naught the testimony of prophets and apostles, we can confidently say that we hear not in their teachings the voice of the true Shepherd. The true Shepherd's voice has been heard, bearing a different testimony. Jesus says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." The voice that magnifies the law of God we recognize as the voice of the true Shepherd; but we know that those who would make of no effect the commandments of God, are false shepherds, who would exalt tradition above the commandments of Jehovah. {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 3}

John writes: "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." There are those who claim to have great light, who say that they have communication with the spirits of the dead, who deny the divinity of Christ, and in so doing deny the Father, whom Christ represented on earth. "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father; [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." The class which denies the Father and the Son is rapidly increasing in the world, and the name given to this class by the Bible is antichrist. There are many who have their names upon the church records, who claims to possess superior piety, and yet should Christ appear among them, they would rebuke the Son of God. There are men who profess to be ministers of the Gospel who are teaching heresy, and deceiving many, and leading thousands in the way of apostasy. {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 4}

But John writes to the true followers of Christ, saying: "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." We have here a most precious promise, which will be fulfilled to those who let the truth abide in them. Then hold fast to the truth, and be not beguiled from steadfast adherence to the truth by any of the arts of the deceiver. "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." Our character is to be moulded after the character of Christ. O what humiliation he endured in our behalf! While in this world he lived a life of obedience to the commandments of God, leaving us an example that we should follow in his steps. We must wait for God to reveal his plan, that our life may be the unveiling of the character of Christ. We can be sanctified only as we render obedience to the truth as it is unfolded to us. We cannot live in conscious disobedience of any precept of God, and not be on the losing side. We need to behold the character of Christ, and by beholding become changed into his image. {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 5}

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not." "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 6}

John cannot find adequate words wherein to describe the amazing love of God to sinful man; but he calls upon all to behold the love of God revealed in the gift of his only begotten Son. Through the perfection of the sacrifice given for the guilty race, those who believe in Christ, coming unto him, may be saved from eternal ruin. Christ was one with the Father, yet when sin entered our world through Adam's transgression, he was willing to step down from the exaltation of one who was equal with God, who dwelt in light unapproachable by humanity, so full of glory that no man could behold his face and live, and submit to insult, mockery, suffering, pain, and death in order to answer the claims of the immutable law of God, and make a way of escape for the transgressor by his death and righteousness. This was the work which his Father gave him to do, and those who accept Christ, relying wholly upon his merits, are made the adopted sons and daughters of God, are heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God." Let no one be so deluded by the enemy as to think that it is a condescension for any man, however talented or learned or honored, to accept of Christ. Every human being should look to heaven with reverence and gratitude, and exclaim with amazement, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God." {ST, July 4, 1895 par. 7}

T: Regarding your question to me. Here's the passage in question, from "Steps to Christ."


T: You ask if this describes my experience. Yes, it does. So does Pilgram's Progress, if you've read that.

M: Also, do you think in Jesus' explanation of rebirth to Nicodemus that He had in mind people nowadays who experience rebirth before they learn the truth about the Sabbath? If so, why didn't Nicodemus object?

T: I don't think this is relevant.

M: I believe the idea that Jesus described rebirth [to Nicodemus] taking place before learning the truth about basic doctrines such as diet and Sabbath-keeping is absurd.

T: Really?

M: I'm not saying that's what you believe.

T: You're saying that before a person can be converted, the need to know the truth about such basic doctrines as diet and Sabbath-keeping? I think that idea's absurd. Hopefully we're just having a misunderstanding of what each other means here. I thought you said before that a person could be converted without knowing about the Sabbath. The passage from SC 29 doesn't talk about keeping the Sabbath, but of being convicted of sin, and seeing one's need for Christ.

M: A representative sin would be, for example, impatience. A specific sin would be, for example, being impatient when your child doesn't obey immediately.

T: Being impatient when your child doesn't obey immediately is a representative sin of every other like sin (i.e., every other time when you were impatient with your child). The Holy Spirit would not need to convict a person of each such incident. One particular instance which pricks the conscience is enough. If a person committed tens or hundreds of thousands of sins, or millions of sins, it wouldn't make any sense for the Holy Spirit to reveal all of these at once. The human mind wouldn't be able to grasp all of this. We're very poor at multitasking. Indeed, scientists say we don't really multitask at all, but shift our attention from one thing to another, which is a reason that using a cell phone while driving is dangerous. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ, revealing to us certain representative sins. We are drawn to Christ, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. His goodness contrasts with our badness, and we are led to repentance, which is what is needed.

M: Yes, of course, people who experience genuine, thorough conversion, in harmony with God's appointed way (as described in the passage I posted above and omitted by Tom), do so before they are baptized and join the church. Indeed, genuine, thorough conversion is a prerequisite for baptism. Baptism testifies to the fact. Thus, my question remains unanswered - Does the passage above describe the experience and preparation you received prior to baptism? Please extract statements from the quote that describe what you experienced leading up to and including the moment you were converted. Also, please extract statements that did not happen by the time you experienced rebirth. Thank you.

T: If you're talking about SC 29.1, I don't think that's talking about baptism.

M:I’m talking about the long passage you omitted. Please answer the question above with that passage in mind. Also, please include the extracts requested. Thank you. Tom, this is important to me. Please do not ignore it. Thank you.

Tom, for your convenience here's the long passage you omitted:

Quote:
MR No. 373 - Preparation for Baptism

The preparation for baptism is a matter that needs to be carefully considered. The new converts to the truth should be faithfully instructed in the plain, "Thus saith the Lord." The word of the Lord is to be read and explained to them point by point. {6MR 155.1}

All who enter upon the new life should understand, prior to their baptism, that the Lord requires the undivided affections. In the sermon on the mount are given most precious lessons from the lips of the great Teacher. He says, "no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Again he says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. . . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." The practicing of the truth is essential. The bearing of fruit testifies to the character of the tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The line of demarkation will be plain and distinct between those who love God and keep his commandments and those who love him not and disregard his precepts. There is need of a thorough conversion to the truth. We are not only to say, I believe, but to practice the truth. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, soul, body, and spirit. {6MR 155.2}

The question put to Christ by a lawyer was, "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" There stood the wily priests and rulers expecting to hear from the lips of Christ an answer that would give them opportunity to condemn him. He who reads every heart as an open book understood their purpose. Turning to the lawyer, Christ said unto him, "What is written in the Law? how readest thou?" He gives him an opportunity to answer his own question. And the lawyer answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: This do, and thou shalt live." Christ will not accept a divided heart. The life of the receiver of truth should witness to the change wrought by the transformation of character. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord." Why? Because they have an indwelling Saviour, who works the mind and heart to reveal that love for Christ which leads them to do his will, not their own. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul. {6MR 156.1}

There is need of a much more thorough preparation of the candidates for baptism than has been given them. Satan does not want any one to see the necessity of an entire surrender to God. When the soul fails to make this surrender, sin is not forsaken; appetites and passions are striving for the mastery; temptations confuse the senses, so that true conversion may not take place. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This conformity to the mind and will of Christ is the work of the Holy Spirit. {6MR 156.2}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

"Thy sins be forgiven thee." These words are spoken to the repentant, believing soul. Wonderful Saviour! All need to understand the process of conversion. The fruit is seen in the changed life. True repentance will be shown to be sincere by producing fruit in good works. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character that we prove our connection with him. We cannot depend on any other one to do our work for us. We must perform our duties for ourselves. We must work the will of God, and delight to do his commandments. Then we shall not lean upon any one but Jesus Christ for support and efficiency. {6MR 157.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need faithful instruction is the subject of dress. In the examination of candidates for baptism this subject should not be lost sight of. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. True conversion of the heart will work wonderful changes in the outward appearance. {6MR 158.1}

There should be no carelessness in dress. Teach the young converts that dress is a talent. For Christ's sake, whose property we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before him. Thus we are taught that the Lord has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolical. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolical. In all things we are to be representatives of him. Good taste should be exercised in the selection of appropriate colors. Our dress should be tidy and well-fitting. The hair should be carefully arranged. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the word of God gives us no sanction in making changes in our apparel merely for the sake of fashion, that we may appear like the world. When the desire for display in dress absorbs the mind, vanity is manifested. All this must be put away. {6MR 158.2}

The words of Scripture in regard to dress should be carefully considered. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul says, "In like manner also, let women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." And through the apostle Peter the instruction is given, "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." {6MR 159.1}

Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array of expensive ornaments. All this display imparts no value to the character. The Lord desires every converted person to put away the idea that dressing as worldlings dress will give value to our influence. The ornamentation of the person with jewels and luxurious things is a species of idolatry. This needless display reveals a love for those things which are supposed to place a value upon the person. It gives evidence to the world of a heart destitute of the inward adornment. Expensive dress and adornments of jewelry give an incorrect representation of the truth that should always be represented as of the highest value. An overdressed, outwardly adorned person bears the sign of inward poverty. A lack of spirituality is revealed. {6MR 159.2}

Extravagance in dress requires the expenditure of means that is needed to advance the work of the Lord. Extra ribbons and bows mean pennies and shillings spent needlessly. The trimming of ladies' hats with high-standing bows is a needless expense, and it is unbecoming to a Christian. In the house of God the overtrimmed hats are a positive annoyance. The congregation desire to see the face of the speaker as well as to hear his voice; but the ladies' hats with their high-standing ribbons and bows, obscure the view. Many in the congregation may be seen peering this way and that to get a glimpse of the speaker; but often their efforts are in vain. Their enjoyment of the service is marred, and the minister, who observes all this, is disturbed. {6MR 160.1}

Satan has a snare laid to captivate unwary souls by leading them to give more attention to the outward adorning than to the inward graces which love of truth and righteousness display as the fruit borne upon the Christian tree. If the enemy can keep the minds of believers centered upon their dress and outward appearance, he is well pleased. They injure their influence, and the cause of truth which they profess to love. {6MR 160.2}

Many indulge a passion for dress. They spend their money for that which is not bread, and are as foolish as was Esau, who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Many bar their own souls from entering the strait gate because they cannot indulge their love for display and yet believe in Christ and walk in his footsteps. {6MR 160.3}

"If any man will come after me," said Christ, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Self denial and self-sacrifice will mark the Christian's life. Evidence that the taste is really converted will be seen in the dress of all who walk the narrow path of holiness, the path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord to walk in. {6MR 160.4}

Christians should not neglect to search the Scriptures on these points. They need to understand that which the Lord of heaven appreciates in even the dressing of the body. Those who are earnest in seeking for the grace of Christ will heed the precious words of instruction inspired of God. Even the style of the apparel will express the truth of the gospel. Their dress bears its testimony to their own family, to the church and the world, that they are being purified from vanity and selfishness. They demonstrate that they are not idolaters. {6MR 161.1}

Wherever the grace of humility, a meek and quiet spirit, is cherished, the whole person will express the same. The grace of Christ in the heart finds expression in a dignified, decorous deportment. The truth is manifest in the flesh. And truth lived always has an influence in favor of the truth, testifying of practical godliness. All such experiences are of the highest value. The usefulness of the Christian testifies to the genuineness of his conversion. {6MR 161.2}

As those who claim to believe the truth give expression to the truth in appropriate dress and in their words and conduct, they are living epistles for God, known and read by all who behold them. Their chaste conversation is a sign of the inward adorning. They have enlarged influence; a field of usefulness is ever open before them. They are as signs in the world, perpetuating a saving knowledge of divine truth, as salt that has not lost its savour. {6MR 161.3}

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,"--the same Word that was in the beginning with God, and was God. Through his own life in human nature, Christ has revealed to us his methods of usefulness in saving souls. His character is to be revealed in his followers. The reception of the great testing truths for these last days never makes the receiver coarse and rough and uncourteous, harsh in conversation and spirit. The truth genuinely believed is a reality to the receiver. It never degrades, but always refines, elevates, and ennobles the receiver. Through sanctification of the Spirit it makes him an agency through whom the unseen angels of God work out his holy principles. {6MR 162.1}

The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. Faithful, Christian men and women should have an intense interest to bring the convicted soul to a correct knowledge of righteousness in Christ Jesus. If any have allowed the desire of pleasure or the love of dress to become supreme, so that any portion of their mind, soul, and strength, is devoted to selfish indulgences, the faithful believers should watch for these souls as they that must give an account. They must not neglect the faithful, tender, loving instruction so essential to the young converts, that there may be no half-hearted work. The very first experiences should be right. If those who have been long in the way will try to help the one who is just beginning the Christian course, they will often be as the Lord's living agencies. All who will be true and faithful in the performance of their duty are representatives of Christ, the true Shepherd. If all realized the conflict which each soul must wage with Satanic agencies that are seeking to ensnare and entice and deceive, there would be much more diligent labor done for those who are young in the faith. {6MR 162.2}

The atmosphere of the world is charged with spiritual malaria. All who accept of Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour must count themselves dead to all things in their life conduct that Christ would not approve. These newborn souls seldom have sufficient instruction. They are left too much to themselves, and are often tempted, and do not discern the evil of the temptation. Let these souls newly come to the faith feel that it is their privilege to solicit counsel. If they seek the society of those who can help them, they will soon possess the refined taste that will ever choose the company of those who love and fear God. Our conversation with these souls should be of a spiritual, encouraging character. The Lord marks the conflict of every weak, doubting, struggling soul, and he will help all who call upon him. They will see heaven open before them, and angels of God ascending and descending the ladder of shining brightness which they are trying to climb. {6MR 163.1}

After the believing soul has received the ordinance of baptism, he is to bear in mind that he is dedicated to God, to Christ, and to the Holy Spirit. These three all cooperate in the great work of the covenant made by baptism in the sight of the heavenly universe. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit receive the believing soul into covenant relation with God. {6MR 163.2}

All who study the life of Christ and practice his teaching will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. They are established in the faith, and will not be overcome by the devil because of vanity and pride. They seek to walk the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God. Their character exerts an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of his work. {6MR 163.3}

By the reception of the doctrines revealed and the performance of the duties required in the word of God, the professed followers of Christ are to witness to the world of their unity with Christ. They are to show that they have been given to Christ by his Father, and are overcomers through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. They love him who hath redeemed them. They increase in knowledge of Christ through exemplifying his character. And they cherish expectations that will not be disappointed: they expect to see his face and to rejoice in the sunshine of his countenance. {6MR 164.1}

In these thoroughly converted souls the world has a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. Through them Christ makes known to the world his character and will. In the lives of God's children is revealed the blessedness of serving the Lord, and the opposite is seen in those who do not keep his commandments. The line of demarkation is distinct. All who obey God's commandments are kept by his mighty power amid the corrupting influence of the transgressors of his law. From the lowliest subject to the highest in positions of trust, they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. {6MR 164.2}

In his prayer to the Father, Christ says of his followers, "The glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them as thou hast loved me." O what possibilities and probabilities are for God's people if they will humble themselves and exalt the Lord Jesus. {6MR 164.3}

In his prayer the Saviour says further, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." {6MR 165.1}

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the very key that opens to us the portals of heaven, that we may obtain eternal life, an immortal inheritance, and eternal substance. All who have this knowledge are constantly advancing heavenward. They have a good report in their own family, in the church, and in the world.--Ms 56, 1900. ("Preparation for Baptism," typed August 12, 1900.) {6MR 165.2}

The principles of righteousness must be implanted in the soul. The faith must grasp the power of Jesus Christ, else there is no safety. Licentious practices are getting to be as common as in the days before the flood. Not one should be buried with Christ by baptism unless they are critically examined whether they have ceased to sin, whether they have fixed moral principles, whether they know what sin is, whether they have moral defilement which God abhors. Find out by close questioning if these persons are really ceasing to sin, if with David they can say, I hate sin with a perfect hatred.--Letter 26d, 1887, p. 6. (To "Brother Covert and those who hold responsible positions in the Indiana Conference," September 27, 1887.) {6MR 165.3}

My burden is that ministers of the gospel shall preach the truth as to what constitutes true conversion. They are not to lead down into the water souls who are not converted. The church is becoming composed of men and women who have never realized how sinful sin is.--Letter 134, 1899, p. 5. (To "Dear Brethren in America," September 8, 1899). {6MR 166.1}

Those who have taken part in the solemn rite of baptism have pledged themselves to seek for those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. They have pledged themselves to labor earnestly for the saving of sinners. God asks those who name his name, How are you using the powers that have been redeemed by the death of my Son? Are you doing all in your power to rise to a greater height in spiritual understanding? Are you adjusting your interests and actions in accordance with the momentous claims of eternity?--Ms 63, 1901, p. 8. (Diary, April 30, 1901). {6MR 166.2}

No one is to take part in the solemn ordinance of baptism without giving the subject careful, prayerful thought. The candidates, and especially the youth, are to be carefully instructed in regard to the obligations they assume in taking this step. They pledge themselves to devote their lives to God's service; and the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, pledge themselves to cooperate with them, to work in and through them.--Ms 118, 1902, pp. 1, 2. ("Christ's Method of Imparting Truth," October 6, 1902). {6MR 166.3}

The world has no claim to our service; for by a solemn, holy covenant we accepted God's badge of service at the time of our baptism. On that occasion we pledged ourselves, in the presence of the three great heavenly Powers, to come out from the world and be separate.--Ms 130, 1902, p. 4. (Diary, October 27, 1902). {6MR 167.1}

In receiving baptism, the human agent, inspired with new purposes, pledges himself to die to the world and live in obedience to Christ. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost supply the power that makes him victorious in every conflict with the prince of darkness.--Letter 200, 1902, p. 7. (To Brother and Sister Kress, December 15, 1902). {6MR 167.2}

Our churches are becoming enfeebled by receiving for doctrines the commandments of men. Many are received into the church who are not converted. Men, women, and children are allowed to take part in the solemn rite of baptism without being fully instructed in regard to the meaning of this ordinance. Participation in this ordinance means much, and our ministers should be careful to give each candidate plain instruction in regard to its meaning and its solemnity.--Ms 10, 1905, p. 4. ("Non-essential Subjects to Be Avoided," September 12, 1904.)

Released August 13, 1974. {6MR 167.3}

Again, does this describe the preparation you received before you experienced rebirth?

I believe the passages you posted above make it clear the Holy Spirit plays a significant part in helping us to discern the difference between truth and lies. He works in concert with godly people who share the truth with us. And, of course, He works with us as we search the scriptures for truth. The “unction” and “anointing” that abides within us is the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is spiritual “eyesalve” and enables us, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to understand the truth.

I don’t see how you can say the passage above describes your experience at rebirth when you testified you experienced rebirth before the Holy Spirit made “every spot of defilement painfully distinct” and laid “bare the deformity and defects” of your character and made “apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips” and “acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God.”

Was your spirit “stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God” and did you “loathe” yourself as you viewed “the pure, spotless character of Christ”?

M: Also, do you think in Jesus' explanation of rebirth to Nicodemus that He had in mind people nowadays who experience rebirth before they learn the truth about the Sabbath? If so, why didn't Nicodemus object?

T: I don't think this is relevant.

M:It’s relevant to me. Please answer the question. Thank you.

M: I believe the idea that Jesus described rebirth [to Nicodemus] taking place before learning the truth about basic doctrines such as diet and Sabbath-keeping is absurd.

T: Really?

M:Absolutely. Is there any contextual evidence to the contrary?

Quote:
M: I'm not saying that's what you believe.

T: You're saying that before a person can be converted, the need to know the truth about such basic doctrines as diet and Sabbath-keeping? I think that idea's absurd. Hopefully we're just having a misunderstanding of what each other means here. I thought you said before that a person could be converted without knowing about the Sabbath. The passage from SC 29 doesn't talk about keeping the Sabbath, but of being convicted of sin, and seeing one's need for Christ.

M:Please keep in mind, as we discuss this point, that I believe there is a difference between experiencing rebirth and converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.

In His description to Nicodemus, Jesus made it clear people must consent to baptism by water and the Spirit before they can enter the kingdom of God. Baptism by water symbolizes the fact people have crucified self, have experienced rebirth, and have consented to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. The Bible portrays baptismal candidates experiencing rebirth and conversion simultaneously. As I said earlier, nowhere in the Bible does it describe people consenting to baptism before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree? If not, please post passages that teach otherwise.

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176)

Having said this, please understand that I also believe people nowadays do in reality experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

Another question. You and I both believe “that which may be known of God is manifest” to everyone “for God hath showed it unto them . . . even his eternal power and Godhead . . . knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death.” I believe everyone is born with an instinctive knowledge of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments and that this knowledge is confirmed as the Holy Spirit works to draw them to Jesus.

You, on the other hand, seem to think “that which may be known of God” may not include the 10Cs.

Doesn’t this imply that in judgment they would have an excuse for certain sinful habits and practices? That is, if they didn’t know, how can Jesus hold them accountable in judgment?

M: A representative sin would be, for example, impatience. A specific sin would be, for example, being impatient when your child doesn't obey immediately.

T: Being impatient when your child doesn't obey immediately is a representative sin of every other like sin (i.e., every other time when you were impatient with your child). The Holy Spirit would not need to convict a person of each such incident. One particular instance which pricks the conscience is enough. If a person committed tens or hundreds of thousands of sins, or millions of sins, it wouldn't make any sense for the Holy Spirit to reveal all of these at once. The human mind wouldn't be able to grasp all of this. We're very poor at multitasking. Indeed, scientists say we don't really multitask at all, but shift our attention from one thing to another, which is a reason that using a cell phone while driving is dangerous. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ, revealing to us certain representative sins. We are drawn to Christ, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. His goodness contrasts with our badness, and we are led to repentance, which is what is needed.

M:As I said, the Holy Spirit reveals to people, in light of the cross, all their sinful habits and practices. He leaves none of their sinful habits and practices unrevealed because He fears they may be blown away and reject Jesus.

The Holy Spirit also impresses them to confess specific sins, that is, specific instances of lying, cheating, stealing, etc. And, as mentioned earlier, in cases where people experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded, the Holy Spirit chooses not to reveal to them essential truths like the Sabbath, diet and dress reform, the state of dead, the sanctuary, the mark of the beast, etc.

This says, "Preparation for baptism." When I was converted, I wasn't prepared for baptism.

I don't understand why you're still asking this. Haven't I answered this a couple of times? I also don't understand why you're quoting from a section which says, "Preparation for Baptism," and asking me about an event which is not baptism.