Tom, thank you for the response above. To be clear, do you agree with Ellen's view on baptism as described in MR 373 (posted earlier on this thread)? Her explanation is too clear to be misunderstood. There is nothing ambiguous about it. Do you agree with her?

Also, do you think one or more of the 28 fundamental beliefs may contain errors that later on will be corrected?

And, do you think the Holy Spirit is withholding truth waiting for the right time to reveal it?

If so, will it enable us to cease sinning in ways we are now ignorant of?

M: Tom, thank you for the response above. To be clear, do you agree with Ellen's view on baptism as described in MR 373 (posted earlier on this thread)? Her explanation is too clear to be misunderstood. There is nothing ambiguous about it. Do you agree with her?

T: I think what she wrote is good counsel. Is there any reason you would think I would disagree with something she wrote?

M: Also, do you think one or more of the 28 fundamental beliefs may contain errors that later on will be corrected?

T: I don't think I would put it that way. I think there is light yet to shine that hasn't been explained in the fundamental beliefs.

M: And, do you think the Holy Spirit is withholding truth waiting for the right time to reveal it?

T: I don't know if I would put it that way either. It's not so much that the Holy Spirit withholds truth as He needs people that are willing to respond to it. I think He's constantly working to shine as much light as possible. That being said, there are certainly times when light shines in a special way, such as 1888.

M: If so, will it enable us to cease sinning in ways we are now ignorant of?

T: I think there is much more involved in the cleansing of the sanctuary than what people are aware of. Jones and Waggoner discussed this. I was going to say especially Jones, but Waggoner discussed the concepts involved at length as well. I would say that light can bring to our attention things that we weren't aware of previously.

T: You have a theory, which I don't know what it's based on, that everybody instinctively knows the last six commandments. People don't even know how to swim by instinct. People have to learn almost everything, but even if we disallowed, for the sake of argument, disobedience to the last six commandments, that would still leave the first four. If you don't think these are known by instinct, then these would be possibilities, right?

M:Paul wrote that everyone has “a measure of faith” and that “which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them”. And Ellen wrote, “As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. (RC 106) The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. (DA 458) His law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every fiber of our being, upon every faculty which has been entrusted to man. (OHC 266)

T: As I stated, I think you're whole way of thinking about this is wrong. You're looking at behavior in terms of the keeping of rules, as I perceive things, and thinking that this is what is important. What I believe is important is one's heart, and if one's heart is right, one will follow Christ and obey, to the best of one's knowledge. But one's knowledge may be imperfect. One doesn't know all there is to following Christ in an instant. And as one matures, things which wouldn't have even been thought of earlier will strike one as sin. Say there's a person X, and X here's the Gospel, and gives his life to Christ. Are you think such a person:

A. Is not converted, even though he's given his life to Christ.
B. Is not born again, even though he's given his life to Christ.
C. Is converted/born again, because he's given his life to Christ, and has instantly become perfect, not sinning in any way (excepting dress, diet, and Sabbath), not just in the sense of known sins, but unknown sins as well (excluding the things mentioned).
d. Or something else?

M:Regarding X-Men, Peter wrote, “Newborn babes” who have “tasted that the Lord is gracious . . . desire the sincere milk of the word [and] grow thereby” have also laid “aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speaking.” And, referring to X-Men, Ellen also wrote, “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

I realize you believe these insights must necessarily be interpreted to include only those sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit reveals to them,

which, by implication, excludes a host of sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit was forced not to reveal to them,

which also implies, therefore, that they go on practicing them without realizing they are violating the will of God.

I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon his people for commencing the Sabbath as they have.... Said the angel, “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel, “If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.”{4bSG 3.3}

However, as you may well suspect by now, I totally and emphatically disagree with this idea.

Besides, you have yet to post passages which clearly say people experience rebirth before they realize which sinful habits and practices violate the last six commandments.

Please do so, or, if not, at least admit they do not exist. Citing Martin Luther’s sins as proof does not cut it.

Peter made it clear that the newborn babes he described have laid aside “all evil speaking”. Regarding “evil speaking” James wrote, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” Peter also said they have laid aside “all guile”. Regarding “guile” John wrote, “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth [and] in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Hopefully this response answers your question. I suppose option D above is the correct answer.

However, I am perfectly aware of the fact most people experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs. Nevertheless, I do not believe people who experience genuine rebirth are reborn ignorant of the sinful habits and practices that violate the last six commandments.

In fact, the only commandment they could possibly break without realizing they are sinning is the fourth commandment.

I realize you believe sins like polygamy and racial/ethnic prejudices are practiced without realizing it is a sin by people who experience genuine rebirth; but I disagree.

The seventh commandment forbids sexual relations between people who are not married to one another.

Technically speaking, polygamists are married, so technically they’re not committing adultery.

In their hearts they do not think or feel they are breaking the seventh commandment.

And, so far as racial/ethnic prejudices is concerned, a genuinely born-again believer will not go around hating and despising people prejudicially.

They will feel very uncomfortable with their former prejudices because of the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit and the truth as is it in Jesus.

T: You have a theory, which I don't know what it's based on, that everybody instinctively knows the last six commandments. People don't even know how to swim by instinct. People have to learn almost everything, but even if we disallowed, for the sake of argument, disobedience to the last six commandments, that would still leave the first four. If you don't think these are known by instinct, then these would be possibilities, right?

M: Paul wrote that everyone has “a measure of faith” and that “which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them”. And Ellen wrote, “As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. (RC 106) The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. (DA 458) His law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every fiber of our being, upon every faculty which has been entrusted to man. (OHC 266)

T: Neither of these says what you are saying. Being able to discriminate between right and wrong doesn't mean one knows what is right by instinct. It means given light, one has the ability to make right/wrong decisions. But it's certainly the case that what one thought at one time was OK, one comes to view differently, when given more light.

T: As I stated, I think you're whole way of thinking about this is wrong. You're looking at behavior in terms of the keeping of rules, as I perceive things, and thinking that this is what is important. What I believe is important is one's heart, and if one's heart is right, one will follow Christ and obey, to the best of one's knowledge. But one's knowledge may be imperfect. One doesn't know all there is to following Christ in an instant. And as one matures, things which wouldn't have even been thought of earlier will strike one as sin. Say there's a person X, and X here's the Gospel, and gives his life to Christ. Are you think such a person:

A. Is not converted, even though he's given his life to Christ.
B. Is not born again, even though he's given his life to Christ.
C. Is converted/born again, because he's given his life to Christ, and has instantly become perfect, not sinning in any way (excepting dress, diet, and Sabbath), not just in the sense of known sins, but unknown sins as well (excluding the things mentioned).
d. Or something else?

M: Regarding X-Men, Peter wrote, “Newborn babes” who have “tasted that the Lord is gracious . . . desire the sincere milk of the word [and] grow thereby” have also laid “aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speaking.” And, referring to X-Men, Ellen also wrote, “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

M: I realize you believe these insights must necessarily be interpreted to include only those sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit reveals to them . . .

T: And you too, right? Surely you don't think the statement above includes sinful habits and practices which the Holy Spirit has not revealed. Or do you? How could it? For example, "makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct" is dealing with what the Holy Spirit has revealed, isn't it?

M: . . . which, by implication, excludes a host of sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit was forced not to reveal to them . . .

T: Why do you say "forced"? I think that's an odd choice for a word.

M: . . . which also implies, therefore, that they go on practicing them without realizing they are violating the will of God.

T: Are they? That is, are they violating the will of God?

I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon his people for commencing the Sabbath as they have.... Said the angel, “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel, “If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.”{4bSG 3.3}

T: No light = no sin.

M: However, as you may well suspect by now, I totally and emphatically disagree with this idea.

T: You look to be disagree with an idea you made up, as opposed to an idea someone holds. I'm pretty sure my idea here is the same as Ellen White's, which is that when a person gives his life to the Lord, God reveals those things which he wants him to be aware of, convicting him of sin, and giving him the desire and ability to overcome what He has revealed. He doesn't reveal everything at once, which is evident by experience, common sense, and what we see in Scripture and the SOP (e.g., what I just quoted above that the angel said).

M: Besides, you have yet to post passages which clearly say people experience rebirth before they realize which sinful habits and practices violate the last six commandments.

T: What? Why should I?

M: Please do so, or, if not, at least admit they do not exist. Citing Martin Luther’s sins as proof does not cut it.

T: It's not a reasonable request. There are 10 commandments, not six. I've already laid out the concept involved, which is that we are accountable for those things for which we have light. There's no difference here between the first four commandments and the last six in regards to this concept. If you disagree, why don't you cite some passage which says that we are held accountable for the last six commandments, regardless of whether or not we have light on them, but on the first four only if we have light.

M: Hopefully this response answers your question. I suppose option D above is the correct answer.

T: Which is what? Here's what I think:

1.A person is converted when he gives his life to Christ.
2.At that point he is justified.
3.At that point he is born again.
4.These are all synonymns.
5.Such a person will obey God to the best of his ability, according to the light he has at that time.
6.Such a person does not have all light on all sins, but is starting to learn. God reveals things to a person little by little, according to his willingness to respond and learn.
7.People are not instantly perfect.
8.There is no separation between the last six commandments and the first four on these points. That is, items 1-7 apply to all 10 commandments. When a person is converted/born again/justified, God writes the law on the heart, which is all 10 commandments, not just 6.

M: However, I am perfectly aware of the fact most people experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs. Nevertheless, I do not believe people who experience genuine rebirth are reborn ignorant of the sinful habits and practices that violate the last six commandments.

T: If you mean in a general sense, I agree. If you mean that there is nothing that the could possibly do which violates one of the last six commandments in any way that they might not be aware of, I think such a view would have to be based on a very superficial idea of what constitutes sin. Also, there is no text in either the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy which suggests such a thing, that the last six commandments are special, and the comment regarding light (from the angel, cited above), does not apply to these commandments.

M: In fact, the only commandment they could possibly break without realizing they are sinning is the fourth commandment.

T: This is just a private idea you hold. There is not a shred of evidence that this is the case. You haven't cited a single text from anything, inspired or not, to suggest this.

M: I realize you believe sins like polygamy and racial/ethnic prejudices are practiced without realizing it is a sin by people who experience genuine rebirth; but I disagree.

T: Based on what? Peoples from other cultures, that convert to Christianity who have multiple wives, have been totally unaware of having done anything wrong. Do you think they are faking it? Missionaries who have gone there have had difficulties trying to figure out what should be done. Have you read what Ellen White has written about divorce and remarriage? If so, you can see even in this case, a very common one, she expressed exasperation about no knowing what should be done.

M: The seventh commandment forbids sexual relations between people who are not married to one another.

T: It actually just says, "thou shalt not commit adultery." But what constitutes adultery? That's not specified.

M: Technically speaking, polygamists are married, so technically they’re not committing adultery.

T: That's an interesting interpretation, contrary to what Sister White wrote.

M: In their hearts they do not think or feel they are breaking the seventh commandment.

T: The same can be said for people living in monogamous relationships. What constitutes being married? In some countries, there are two ceremonies, one legal, and the other in a church, in that order. If a person had relations after the first, but before the second, would that be committing adultery? What is it that makes a person be married?

M: And, so far as racial/ethnic prejudices is concerned, a genuinely born-again believer will not go around hating and despising people prejudicially. They will feel very uncomfortable with their former prejudices because of the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit and the truth as is it in Jesus.

T: What's this in reference to? The Luther point? If so, are you saying you don't think Luther was born again?

M: Tom, thank you for the response above. To be clear, do you agree with Ellen's view on baptism as described in MR 373 (posted earlier on this thread)? Her explanation is too clear to be misunderstood. There is nothing ambiguous about it. Do you agree with her?

T: I think what she wrote is good counsel. Is there any reason you would think I would disagree with something she wrote?

M: Also, do you think one or more of the 28 fundamental beliefs may contain errors that later on will be corrected?

T: I don't think I would put it that way. I think there is light yet to shine that hasn't been explained in the fundamental beliefs.

M: And, do you think the Holy Spirit is withholding truth waiting for the right time to reveal it?

T: I don't know if I would put it that way either. It's not so much that the Holy Spirit withholds truth as He needs people that are willing to respond to it. I think He's constantly working to shine as much light as possible. That being said, there are certainly times when light shines in a special way, such as 1888.

M: If so, will it enable us to cease sinning in ways we are now ignorant of?

T: I think there is much more involved in the cleansing of the sanctuary than what people are aware of. Jones and Waggoner discussed this. I was going to say especially Jones, but Waggoner discussed the concepts involved at length as well. I would say that light can bring to our attention things that we weren't aware of previously.

T: You have a theory, which I don't know what it's based on, that everybody instinctively knows the last six commandments. People don't even know how to swim by instinct. People have to learn almost everything, but even if we disallowed, for the sake of argument, disobedience to the last six commandments, that would still leave the first four. If you don't think these are known by instinct, then these would be possibilities, right?

M: Paul wrote that everyone has “a measure of faith” and that “which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them”. And Ellen wrote, “As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. (RC 106) The human mind is endowed with power to discriminate between right and wrong. (DA 458) His law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every fiber of our being, upon every faculty which has been entrusted to man. (OHC 266)

T: Neither of these says what you are saying. Being able to discriminate between right and wrong doesn't mean one knows what is right by instinct. It means given light, one has the ability to make right/wrong decisions. But it's certainly the case that what one thought at one time was OK, one comes to view differently, when given more light.

M:I believe the passages above mean precisely what I’ve been saying.

It “exists in every heart.”

M:Her use of the word “every” does not allow for the idea that the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal certain sinful habits and practices.

There is no indication she is assuming they have this experience before they learned the truth about Sabbath-keeping.

M:In fact, you have yet to post a passage where she clearly says what you say about it, that is, that there are times when the Holy Spirit chooses not to reveal “every” sinful habit and practice, that He allows them to go on practicing certain sinful habits ignorantly after they experience rebirth, after they are qualified to enter heaven.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176)

EGW:I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon his people for commencing the Sabbath as they have.... Said the angel, “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel, “If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.”{4bSG 3.3}

T: No light = no sin.

M:Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” Are we to assume they were not guilty of sinning?

“If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.”

M:Sinning ignorantly is, nonetheless, a sin. True, God does not hold them accountable; instead, He holds Jesus accountable, that is, Jesus paid the price for their sins of ignorance on the cross, and for this reason God can justifiably count them guiltless.

M:Breaking the Sabbath is a sin whether people know it or not; yes, they do it ignorantly, nevertheless, it is a sin.

M: However, as you may well suspect by now, I totally and emphatically disagree with this idea.

T: You look to be disagree with an idea you made up, as opposed to an idea someone holds. I'm pretty sure my idea here is the same as Ellen White's, which is that when a person gives his life to the Lord, God reveals those things which he wants him to be aware of, convicting him of sin, and giving him the desire and ability to overcome what He has revealed. He doesn't reveal everything at once, which is evident by experience, common sense, and what we see in Scripture and the SOP (e.g., what I just quoted above that the angel said).

M:The quote you posted above refers to Sabbath-keeping, which, as you know, I have already said many times is an exception.

M:Peter wrote, “Newborn babes” who have “tasted that the Lord is gracious . . . desire the sincere milk of the word [and] grow thereby” have also laid “aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speaking.” Nowhere does Ellen apply the “no light equals no sin” to sinful habits and practices.

M:She very clearly said the Holy Spirit makes “every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” The view you are advocating is at odds with what she plainly wrote about it. Please post one passage where she plainly says what you say about it.

T: It's not a reasonable request. There are 10 commandments, not six. I've already laid out the concept involved, which is that we are accountable for those things for which we have light. There's no difference here between the first four commandments and the last six in regards to this concept. If you disagree, why don't you cite some passage which says that we are held accountable for the last six commandments, regardless of whether or not we have light on them, but on the first four only if we have light.

M:Peter made it clear that the newborn babes he described have laid aside “all evil speaking”.

M:Regarding “evil speaking” James wrote, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.”

M:Peter also said they have laid aside “all guile”. Regarding “guile” John wrote, “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth [and] in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Again, please post a passage which supports the idea that the Holy Spirit does not make “every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character” before they experience rebirth.

M: Hopefully this response answers your question. I suppose option D above is the correct answer.

T: Which is what? Here's what I think:

1.A person is converted when he gives his life to Christ.
2.At that point he is justified.
3.At that point he is born again.
4.These are all synonymns.
5.Such a person will obey God to the best of his ability, according to the light he has at that time.
6.Such a person does not have all light on all sins, but is starting to learn. God reveals things to a person little by little, according to his willingness to respond and learn.
7.People are not instantly perfect.
8.There is no separation between the last six commandments and the first four on these points. That is, items 1-7 apply to all 10 commandments. When a person is converted/born again/justified, God writes the law on the heart, which is all 10 commandments, not just 6.

M:I disagree.

M:Most people nowadays experience rebirth before they learn the truth about Sabbath-keeping. However, no one experiences genuine rebirth before they confess and crucify “every spot of defilement [and] deformity and defects of the human character” which the Holy Spirit “lays bare [and makes] painfully distinct” to them.

M: However, I am perfectly aware of the fact most people experience rebirth before they learn how to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs. Nevertheless, I do not believe people who experience genuine rebirth are reborn ignorant of the sinful habits and practices that violate the last six commandments.

T: If you mean in a general sense, I agree. If you mean that there is nothing that the could possibly do which violates one of the last six commandments in any way that they might not be aware of, I think such a view would have to be based on a very superficial idea of what constitutes sin. Also, there is no text in either the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy which suggests such a thing, that the last six commandments are special, and the comment regarding light (from the angel, cited above), does not apply to these commandments.

M: In fact, the only commandment they could possibly break without realizing they are sinning is the fourth commandment.

T: This is just a private idea you hold. There is not a shred of evidence that this is the case. You haven't cited a single text from anything, inspired or not, to suggest this.

M:Again, Peter made it clear that the newborn babes he described have laid aside “all evil speaking”. Regarding “evil speaking” James wrote, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” Peter also said they have laid aside “all guile”. Regarding “guile” John wrote, “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth [and] in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” These passages clearly support what I’ve been advocating. Do you agree?

M:Again, please name a sinful habit genuinely born-again people retain after they experience rebirth because the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal it to them.

M:You wrote, “If you mean that there is nothing that the could possibly do which violates one of the last six commandments in any way that they might not be aware of, I think such a view would have to be based on a very superficial idea of what constitutes sin.” Again, please name a sin you believe falls into this category, that is, a sin that they have no idea before, during, or immediately afterward is a sin.

M: The seventh commandment forbids sexual relations between people who are not married to one another.

T: It actually just says, "thou shalt not commit adultery." But what constitutes adultery? That's not specified.

M: Technically speaking, polygamists are married, so technically they’re not committing adultery.

T: That's an interesting interpretation, contrary to what Sister White wrote.

M: In their hearts they do not think or feel they are breaking the seventh commandment.

T: The same can be said for people living in monogamous relationships. What constitutes being married? In some countries, there are two ceremonies, one legal, and the other in a church, in that order. If a person had relations after the first, but before the second, would that be committing adultery? What is it that makes a person be married?

M:The point is they are not committing adultery (sexual relations between people not married to one another). Using polygamy as proof people experience rebirth before they confess and crucify “every spot of defilement” is not valid.

Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation.{PP 145.1}

M: And, so far as racial/ethnic prejudices is concerned, a genuinely born-again believer will not go around hating and despising people prejudicially. They will feel very uncomfortable with their former prejudices because of the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit and the truth as is it in Jesus.

T: What's this in reference to? The Luther point? If so, are you saying you don't think Luther was born again?

M:Luther was born again. However, there is no proof he hated or despised people prejudicially.

I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.(Luther's Works, Volume 47)

if a person has committed 100,000 sins, are you thinking that God reveals these sins one by one until they've all been covered

True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}

please quote anything at all that in any way separates these last six commandments from the first four in the way that you do (specifically, your idea that people know the last six commandments instinctively).

The Pharisees had exalted the first four commandments, which point out the duty of man to his Maker, as of far greater importance than the other six, which point out the duty of man to his fellow-man. In consequence they greatly failed of practical godliness, and in the relations and duties of life. Jesus had been charged with exalting the last six commandments above the first four, because he showed the people their great deficiency, and taught the necessity of good works, deeds of mercy and benevolence, and that a tree is known by its fruits. {3SP 51.2}

If the first commandments are loyally observed, the other six, which define the duty of man to his fellow-man, will be as faithfully observed. When God has his rightful place on the throne of the heart the duties assigned in the last six commandments will be performed as there directed. Love to God comprehends love for those who are formed in his own image. "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he hath seen, how can he love God, whom he hath not seen?" Thus Christ taught that the last six commandments are like unto the first. The two commandments which he indicated are two great principles springing from one root. The first cannot be kept and the second broken, nor the second kept while the first is broken. {3SP 52.2}

The lawyer approached Jesus with a direct question, "Which is the first commandment of all?" The answer of Christ is direct and forcible: "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." The second is like the first, said Christ; for it flows out of it, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." {DA 607.1}

The first four of the Ten Commandments are summed up in the one great precept, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart." The last six are included in the other, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Both these commandments are an expression of the principle of love. The first cannot be kept and the second broken, nor can the second be kept while the first is broken. When God has His rightful place on the throne of the heart, the right place will be given to our neighbor. We shall love him as ourselves. And only as we love God supremely is it possible to love our neighbor impartially. {DA 607.2}

And since all the commandments are summed up in love to God and man, it follows that not one precept can be broken without violating this principle. Thus Christ taught His hearers that the law of God is not so many separate precepts, some of which are of great importance, while others are of small importance and may with impunity be ignored. Our Lord presents the first four and the last six commandments as a divine whole, and teaches that love to God will be shown by obedience to all His commandments. {DA 607.3}

Those who increase their number of children, when if they consulted reason, they must know that physical and mental weakness must be their inheritance, are transgressors of the last six precepts of God's law, which specify the duty of man to his fellow man. {2SM 424.2}

The desire of men and women to accumulate property is not sinful if in their efforts to attain their object they do not forget God, and transgress the last six precepts of Jehovah, which dictate the duty of man to his fellow man, and place themselves in a position where it is impossible for them to glorify God in their bodies and spirits which are his. {2SM 429.1}

Many claim to deal justly with their fellow men, and seem to feel that in so doing they discharge their whole duty. But it is not enough to keep the last six commandments of the decalogue. We are to love the Lord our God with all the heart. Nothing short of obedience to every precept--nothing less than supreme love to God as well as equal love to our fellow man--can satisfy the claims of the divine law. {2BC 1011.7}

If we neglect the cases of the needy and the unfortunate that are brought under our notice, no matter who they may be, we have no assurance of eternal life; for we do not answer the claims that God has upon us. We are not compassionate and pitiful to humanity, because they may not be kith or kin to us. All such are found transgressors of the second great commandment, upon which the last six commandments depend. Whosoever offendeth in one point, he is guilty of all. Those who do not open their hearts to the wants and sufferings of humanity, will not open their hearts to the claims of God stated in the first four precepts of the decalogue. Idols claim the heart and affections, and God is not honored and does not reign supreme. {RH, July 13, 1886 par. 6}

The fifth commandment is sacred; but if you should transgress any of the first four precepts of the decalogue, wherein is revealed the duty of man to his Creator, you would not be in a favorable position for the sacred observance of the last six commandments which specify the duties of man to his fellow man. To break any one of the commandments which specify the duty of man to God is to violate the principles of the entire law. The pen of inspiration records that he who offends in one point is guilty of offense in all. Thus, should the Sabbath of the fourth commandment be disregarded, and man prove recreant to the claims of God upon him, will this disobedience prepare him to fulfill the requirements of the law which specifies his duty to his earthly parents? Will his heart be fitted through transgression of a plain precept of Jehovah upon the first table of stone, to keep the first precept on the second table. We are required, by this commandment, to honor our parents, and we are unnatural children if we do not obey this precept. But if love and reverence are due our earthly parents how much more is reverence and love due our heavenly Parent. {ST, February 28, 1878 par. 5}

Many claim to deal justly with their fellow-men, and seem to feel that in so doing they discharge their whole duty. But it is not enough to keep the last six commandments of the decalogue. We are to love the Lord our God with all the heart. Nothing short of obedience to every precept-nothing less than supreme love to God as well as equal love to our fellow-men-can satisfy the claims of the divine law. {ST, January 26, 1882 par. 12}

The first four commandments of the law grow out of our relation to God, and demand the loving loyalty of our whole hearts. The last six grow out of our relation to our fellow-man, and require us to regard his interests as our own. The keeping of these commandments comprises the whole duty of man, and presents the conditions of eternal life. {ST, November 24, 1887 par. 2}

Are there not many claiming to keep the commandments who are living in transgression of the sacred precepts? We cannot keep the law of God unless we give to our Creator and Redeemer our undivided affection. It is impossible to keep the last six commandments unless we keep the first four. {ST, September 22, 1890 par. 2}

The whole duty of man is comprised in keeping the first four and the last six commandments. The Spirit that prompts men to reveal in life the love of God will also make a man an obedient member of the heavenly family. {ST, July 2, 1894 par. 8}

The law of God, plainly defined by Christ, is not so many separate precepts, some of which are of great importance, while others are of small importance, and may be belittled and ignored: Our Lord presents the first four and the last six commandments as a divine whole. Under the two heads, love to God and love to our neighbor, a divine unity binds all the precepts together. By these two principles man's character is tested, and he is shown to be obedient or disobedient. {ST, September 22, 1898 par. 4}

The law of God is the transcript of His character. Those who profess to keep this law, but who fail to show that they love God with heart, mind, soul, and strength, who do not devote themselves unreservedly to His service, keep neither the first four commandments, which enjoin supreme love for God, nor the last six, which enjoin unselfish love for one another. "By their fruits ye shall know them." True love for God will always manifest itself. It can not be hidden. Those who keep God's commandments in truth will reveal the same love that Christ revealed for His Father and for His fellow-men. He in whose heart Christ abides will reveal Christ in the character, in his work in behalf of those who need to be brought to a knowledge of the Gospel. He will show the fruits of his faith, revealing the Saviour in loving words and in deeds of mercy. {ST, August 8, 1900 par. 6}

Every soul who obeys the first four commandments will obey the last six commandments, and make manifest what is the duty of man to his fellow men. He will manifest tender, pitying love toward everyone for whom Christ has died. He will consecrate himself to be a missionary, to be a laborer together with God. All who have the Spirit of Christ are missionaries; they derive zeal and energy from the Chief Missionary. {2MR 36.1}

Here is our test which God has made, and He will fulfill His word, if human agents will show their love to God in keeping all His commandments. If they reverence the Sabbath, which is engraved on the first table of stone, they will keep the first three commandments, and the last six will reveal the duty of man to his fellow man; for the Sabbath sign is the covenant between God and man. It is the golden clasp which unites man to God in supreme obedience and reverence, and which unites man to his fellow man. {5MR 89.1}

Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. {DA 638.2}

They couldn't be "sinful habits and practices" if there is no light.

M: Peter made it clear that the newborn babes he described have laid aside “all evil speaking”. Regarding “evil speaking” James wrote, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” Peter also said they have laid aside “all guile”. Regarding “guile” John wrote, “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth [and] in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

T: Where is there anything in these passages limiting the comments to the last six commandments? Or excluding the Sabbath?

M: Luther was born again. However, there is no proof he hated or despised people prejudicially.

T: What do you think of the following?