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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #133391
05/09/11 10:52 PM
05/09/11 10:52 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Noah? What are you talking about?


Right. My bad. What was I thinking. Must 'ave lost me 'ead.


Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Sorry, I didn't get it.


Didn't get what. You'll have to be more specific.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
This doesn't apply at all. I'm not speaking about drunkenness, but about the moderate consumption of alcohol.


Why does this not apply but your example of slavery apparently does? And no, the discussion* is not "about the moderate consumption of alcohol," rather it is about whether or not it is OK from a religious point of view for Christians to drink alcohol. We are not discussing health benefits or lack thereof. (All diversions aside)



*See note above re: not getting the thrust of the arguement. smile

Last edited by JAK; 05/10/11 12:00 AM.

"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #133392
05/09/11 11:24 PM
05/09/11 11:24 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Posts: 663
Canada
I AM OPPOSED TO ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION, BUT NOT ON RELIGIOUS GROUNDS.

[Content edited out for being a reply to an edited post.]


Edited by Rosangela (Thu May 12 2011 05:18 PM)

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #133402
05/10/11 02:15 AM
05/10/11 02:15 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Didn't get what. You'll have to be more specific.

I didn't understand what you mean by the sentence, "So, from a salvation perspective, yes, it is OK to own slaves." Does this mean we can have slaves today and still be saved?

Quote:
Quote:

This doesn't apply at all. I'm not speaking about drunkenness, but about the moderate consumption of alcohol.

Why does this not apply but your example of slavery apparently does? And no, the discussion* is not "about the moderate consumption of alcohol," rather it is about whether or not it is OK from a religious point of view for Christians to drink alcohol. We are not discussing health benefits or lack thereof. (All diversions aside)

I think it's you who aren't understanding the thrust of my arguments. You said that if the consumption of alcohol is a sin because some abuse of it, then sex is a sin because some abuse of it. I said this argument doesn't apply, because not just the abuse of alcohol, but its simple use (moderate consumption) is harmful - which is not true in the case of sex.
The same happens with smoking - not just exaggerated smoking is bad, but smoking per se is. I oppose both smoking and drinking not just for health reasons, but also because they are sins. Everything that is harmful to your health is a transgression of the 5th commandment (causing injury to your own body is a form of self-killing) and of the 6th (you are robbing yourself of health, and robbing God and your neighbor of the service you could render to them if you lived longer). This applies to both alcohol and smoking. In the same way, slavery is a sin (although not specifically condemned in the Bible) because it's a transgression of the 6th commandment (you are stealing someone's liberty).

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #133409
05/10/11 01:16 PM
05/10/11 01:16 PM
K
kland  Offline
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You make a statement, but yet when someone brings up smoking or slaves using your same principles, you strongly object to the comparison. You have some motivation. Shouldn't you tell us so that we can understand your view better?

[Content edited out for being a reply to an edited post.]

Edited by Rosangela (Thu May 12 2011 05:21 PM)

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #133493
05/14/11 10:54 PM
05/14/11 10:54 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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I see this Biblical gray area has been true to form in stirring up some heat. smile Gray areas tend to do that. People tend to have convictions that are stronger than they have Bible to back them up. On the issue of alcohol, the Bible paints it in less-than-ideal terms consistently...but never forbids its use outright for everyone. This creates a nice little patch of gray upon which many have argued and/or lost their faith.

I'm not sure the arguments here will do much good of any kind. However, of one thing I am sure--God would be honored to allow freedom of belief and individual conscience to each individual, along with a proper education about the ill effects of drink.

I believe there are times when alcohol is beneficial. If we lived in a remote place where general anesthesia could not be obtained (or if we were to have lived prior to its discovery) I would be right glad to have some alcohol to deaden the pain of surgery or amputation. Would it be a sin to use in this manner? If so, why? If not, why not? What is the principle behind the rule?

The Bible is based on principles, not rules. The overarching principle is love. What is the most loving thing? Along with love, come respect, trust, and obedience. Do we trust God enough to follow Him?

To be clear, I do not drink, nor have I ever tasted alcohol. I respect Mrs. White's statement that "Moderate drinking is the school in which men are receiving an education for the drunkard's career." She also counsels:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The advocates of temperance fail to do their whole duty unless they exert their influence by precept and example--by voice and pen and vote--in favor of prohibition and total abstinence.--RH, Nov. 8, 1881.

What can be done to press back the inflowing tide of evil? Let laws be enacted and rigidly enforced prohibiting the sale and the use of ardent spirits as a beverage. Let every effort be made to encourage the inebriate's return to temperance and virtue. But even more than this is needed to banish the curse of inebriety from our land. Let the appetite for intoxicating liquors be removed, and their use and sale is at an end. This work must to a great degree devolve upon parents. Let them, by observing strict temperance themselves, give the right stamp of character to their children, and then educate and train these children, in the fear of God, to habits of self-denial and self-control. Youth who have been thus trained will have moral stamina to resist temptation, and to control appetite and passion. They will stand unmoved by the folly and dissipation that are corrupting society. {GW 388.1}


We all know that "moderate" use of painkillers can create addictions just as easily as "moderate" use of alcohol. But few object to their medical use at that one moment where they are so helpful. Sometimes the word "moderation" needs to itself be defined. It is immoderate to drink any amount of alcohol on a regular basis. It may, however, be moderate to use it once a year for an upset stomach in some disease-ridden, tropical country where potable water is scarce. smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133494
05/14/11 10:59 PM
05/14/11 10:59 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
...Oh, and even Jesus commended the use of alcohol in at least one instance. (I'll let you all find that one!) wink

Happy Sabbath to you all!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133544
05/18/11 03:58 PM
05/18/11 03:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
JAK, there are texts that clearly forbid consuming alcohol. There are none that clearly say it's okay.


Deut. 14:26 "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

Proverbs 31:6 "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."

1 Timothy 5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Deut 14:26 is referring to tithe. Here's the context:

Quote:
14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
14:25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
14:27 And the Levite that [is] within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay [it] up within thy gates:
14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which [are] within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Why would Jews convert their tithe into money and then use it to buy alcohol?

Also, please consider the following arguments against the view you hold:

Quote:
May 1, 1894 The Curse of the Liquor Traffic.
-
By Mrs. E. G. White.
-

"Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; that useth his neighbor's service without wages, and giveth him not for his work; that saith, I will build me a wide house and large chambers, and cutteth him out windows; and it is ceiled with cedar, and painted with vermilion. Shalt thou reign, because thou closest thyself in cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and justice, and then it was well with him? He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: was not this to know me? saith the Lord. But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 1}
In every phase of the liquor-selling business, there is dishonesty and violence. The houses of liquor dealers are built with the wages of unrighteousness, and upheld by violence and oppression. The effect of the liquor traffic is clearly delineated in the words of the prophets: "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet: and the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up. . . . But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 2}
Through indulgence in sin, the world is becoming as corrupt as it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah, and as it was in the days that were before the flood. Jesus said that this condition of society would be a sign of his coming. He said: "As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." The very sins that brought upon Sodom the fire of destruction are practiced today, and are fast ripening the world for the day of final doom. Indulgence in intoxicating liquor and in licentious practices, is common in all our cities and villages, and the last great day is hastening upon the world. {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 3}
There are many solemn warnings in the Scriptures against the use of intoxicating liquors. Solomon says, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." "Who hath woe? who hath sorrows? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth on the top of a mast. They have stricken me, thou shalt say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 4}
Is not this description true to life? Does it not represent to us the experience of the poor, besotted drunkard, who is plunged in degradation and ruin because he has put the bottle to his lips, and who says, "I will seek it yet again"? The curse has come upon such a soul through indulgence in evil, and Satan has control of his being. "And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: the Lord will not spare him, but then the anger of the Lord and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 5}
With the awful results of indulgence in intoxicating drink before us, how is it that any man or woman who claims to believe in the word of God, can venture to touch, taste, or handle wine or strong drink? Such a practice is certainly out of harmony with their professed faith. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him. Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel." "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! And the harp and the viol, the tabret and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands. Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: but the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 6}
"Woe to them that are at ease in Zion. . . . Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near; that lie on beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall; that chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David; that drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 7}
"Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child, and thy princes eat in the morning! Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength, and not for drunkenness." "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." These words of warning and command are pointed and decided, and let those in positions of public trust take heed, lest through wine and strong drink they forget the law and pervert judgment. Let rulers and judges be in a condition to fulfil the instruction of the Lord: "Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child. If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry; and my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 8}
The Lord God of heaven ruleth. He alone is above all authorities, over all kings and rulers. The Lord has given special directions in his word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced his prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings. But his warning against the use of intoxicating beverages is not the result of the exercise of arbitrary authority. He has warned men, in order that they may escape from the evil that results from indulgence in wine and strong drink. Degradation, cruelty, wretchedness, and strife follow in the wake of drink. God has laid out the consequences of taking this course of evil, in order that there may not be a turning upside down of his instituted laws; that there may not be misery on all sides, through the increase of evil men who for the sake of gain shall selfishly heap to themselves riches, even through selling strong drink and putting the bottle to their neighbors' lips. The liquor traffic should not be legalized in any of our towns or cities. {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 9}
The Lord has given special directions in regard to what is to be done in the case of a vicious ox, which injures or causes the death of any person. He has said: "If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him. Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him. If the ox shall push a man-servant or a maid-servant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned." {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 10}
Remember this instruction in regard to the vicious ox, and apply the principle involved to the man who deals out poisonous alcoholic drinks to his neighbors. Not every man who engages in the liquor business is ignorant of the numberless ways in which it results in degradation, misery, poverty, cruelty, and death. The liquor traffic is a terrible scourge to our land, and is sustained and legalized by those who profess to be Christians. In thus doing, the churches make themselves responsible for all the results of this death-dealing traffic. The liquor traffic has its root in hell itself, and it leads to perdition. These are solemn considerations. {RH, May 1, 1894 par. 11}
The man who has formed the habit of drinking intoxicating liquor, is in a desperate situation. He cannot be reasoned with, or persuaded to deny himself the indulgence. His stomach and brain are diseased, his will power is weakened, and his appetite uncontrollable. The prince of the powers of darkness holds him in bondage that he has no power to break. For the aid of such victims the liquor traffic should be stopped. Do not the rulers of this land see that awful results are the fruit of this traffic? Daily the papers are filled with accounts that would move a heart of stone; and if the senses of our rulers were not perverted, they would see the necessity of doing away with this death-dealing traffic. May the Lord move upon the hearts of those in authority, until they shall take measures that will prohibit the drink traffic.

-
{RH, May 1, 1894 par. 12}

May 8, 1894 The Liquor Traffic Working Counter
to Christ.
-
By Mrs. E. G. White.
-

Jesus came to our world to dispute the authority of Satan, who claimed supremacy over the earth. He came to restore in man the defaced image of God, to impart to the repentant soul divine power by which he might be raised from corruption and degradation, and be elevated and ennobled and made fit for companionship with the angels of heaven, to take the position in the courts of God which Satan and his angels lost through their rebellion. But men have failed to co-operate with Jesus in his divine mission, and have placed themselves under the black banner of the prince of darkness, giving themselves up to be the agents through whom the powers of darkness work for the destruction of humanity. It is Satan's purpose to counteract the work of Christ, and in his counsels he lays plans by which to convert every soul into a channel of darkness. The earth is the field of battle in which the powers of light and darkness are in controversy over the human souls for whom Christ died. {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 1}
When Jesus was upon earth, he announced his mission and the character of his work. He said: "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called Trees of righteousness, The planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified." {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 2}
Thus are pictured the mission and work of Christ and his co-laborers; but how different is the work of the prince of darkness and the work of those who labor on his side of the controversy. Those who are united with the prince of darkness in degrading the souls of their fellow-men, many times cloak their iniquity under the garb of religion; but of them the Lord says: "When ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood." There are many who spread forth their hands in Pharisaical self-righteousness and self-importance, who yet deny the principles of the law of God in their daily actions. Let not those whose hands are full of blood think to find acceptance with God because of their forms of worship. Those who sell intoxicating liquor to their fellow-men come under this reproof. They receive the earnings of the drunkard, and give him no equivalent for his money. Instead of this, they give him that which maddens him, which makes him act the fool, and turns him into a demon of evil and cruelty. He exchanges his reason at the bar of the liquor-dealer for a glass of rum or brandy; and under its influence he may cruelly beat his wife and children, and may even kill them outright, or do so by piece-meal, through neglect, through failure to supply them with the necessities of life. Because of a lack of proper food, of sufficient clothing, because of discouragements and degradation, sickness and death come upon his family, and at last their misery is over. But angels of God have witnessed every step in the downward path, and have traced every consequence that resulted from a man's placing the bottle to his neighbor's lips. The liquor-dealer is written in the records among those whose hands are full of blood. He is condemned for keeping on hand the poisonous draught by which his neighbor is tempted to ruin, and by which homes are filled with wretchedness and degradation. The Lord holds the liquor-dealer responsible for every penny that comes to his till out of the earnings of the poor drunkard, who has lost all moral power, who has sunk his manhood in drink. {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 3}
Christ came to our world and suffered reproach, mockery, and insult. He was maligned and maltreated, and at last put to the shameful death of the cross. He suffered all this that he might rescue man from moral degradation, and restore to the soul the lost image of God. But the liquor-dealer, under the prince of the power of darkness, is working in exactly opposite lines, counter to the work of Christ, and is obliterating every trace of the image which Christ would restore. Look at the drunkard. See what liquor has done for him. His eyes are bleared and bloodshot. His countenance is bloated and besotted. His gait is staggering. The sign of Satan's working is written all over him. Nature herself protests that she knows him not; for he has perverted his God-given powers, and prostituted his manhood by indulgence in drink. {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 4}
If a man has a vicious beast, and he allows it freedom, knowing that it will work injury to men, women, and children, he is brought before the law to answer for his carelessness or malignity. But how much better it would be to let such a beast loose than to license men to deal out poisonous drinks, to rob men of reason and manhood. What common sense in there in licensing men to sell that which destroys men, body and soul, claiming that this infamous business brings into the treasury a revenue by which the orphan children of the drunkard can be cared for? The world knows that intoxicating liquors rob men of the brain nerve-power, and send them into society bereft of reason. The world knows that most horrible crimes have been committed under its influence, and that drunken men have been led by Satan to do as he dictated, and stain their hands in the blood of their neighbors. The law authorizes the sale of liquor, and then has to build prisons for its victims; for nine tenths of those who are taken to prison are those who have learned to drink. They are those who have spent their earnings in the saloon. What revenue from this traffic can pay for the loss of human reason, for the loss of the image of God in men, for families reduced to suffering and degradation, for children made paupers, who grow up in ignorance and vice, to perpetuate in their posterity the inherited evil tendencies of their drunken fathers? Such is the outworking of this dreadful liquor traffic, and thus it perpetuates misery and crime, until the sum cannot be told by human voice or portrayed by human pen. {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 5}
The hands of both liquor-dealers and liquor-drinkers are full of blood; yet the word of God comes to them, "Wash ye, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow;" and he adds this gracious invitation, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." "How is the faithful city become a harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water [and poison]: thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them." Rulers and law-makers are not ignorant of the misery and degradation, the horrible and unceasing crime that pollutes the world through the influence of the liquor-traffic. But though they are not ignorant, they do not take measures to stop the terrible traffic; but will they escape judgment? Hear what the Lord says: "The destruction of the transgressors, and of the sinners shall be together." Those who legalize sin, and those who are dealers in whisky, and those who are defiled by it, will be destroyed together. Let not the man who indulges in drink think that he will be able to cover his defilement by casting the blame upon the liquor-dealer; for he will have to answer for his sin and for the degradation of his wife and children. "They that forsake the Lord shall be consumed." {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 6}
In Europe and America drinking-gardens are made most attractive, and musicians are hired to play on instruments, to lure in the young and the old; and all classes patronize these resorts where all kinds of intoxicating liquors are prepared to tempt the depraved appetite. But the time will certainly come when the prophecy will be fulfilled: "For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen. For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water. And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them." {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 7}
The evil consequent upon the indulgence of depraved appetite is widespread, and the earth is corrupted under the inhabitants thereof. The earth withereth under the curse of its sin, and the very cattle are diseased. What is the trouble? Why is this? It is because the people have forsaken the law of God, and the earth is cursed under its transgression. Notwithstanding the warnings of God's word, transgression has increased since the days of Adam, and more and more heavily has the curse pressed upon the human family, on the beasts of the earth, and on the earth itself. Continual transgression of the law of God has brought its sure results. With all his hellish arts, Satan has sought to lead men into practices that would destroy and debase, and destruction is sure to him who does not repent and turn to God for his healing grace. The soul that has not the grace of God can make no efforts to resist Satan, but will co-operate naturally with the Satanic agencies, and disregard and oppose the law of God; and the sure result of such a course is that men become the willing slaves of Satan, and work with him in influencing others in the way of disobedience. {RH, May 8, 1894 par. 8}
The character of true obedience to God is brought out in the instruction of the Lord to his people. He says (Isaiah 58:6-10): "Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward. Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; and if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: and the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drouth, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be as a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not."

-
{RH, May 8, 1894 par. 9}

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #133558
05/18/11 07:52 PM
05/18/11 07:52 PM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
I posted three texts that clearly say it's okay. Would you like to comment on the other two?

Yes, the context is in regard to tithe, however it is clearly stated that the Israelite should "eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household," So, tithe or no tithe, it is stated that our man drinks the "strong drink." And not just drink, but "rejoice."


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, please consider the following arguments against the view you hold:


First, it is the argument I am making, not the view I hold.
Second, I argue from Scripture, not Elllen White.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #133560
05/18/11 09:47 PM
05/18/11 09:47 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Quote:
14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


A question that just pop out when reading, let say we(my husband and I, owner of the land) do not desire "strong drinks". However we have many laborers/servants in our household that do. Would this law require that I purchase strong drinks for my laborers within my charge? Is it not also as much a celebration in thanks giving for those who have labored for you faithfully all year on your land? It is a celebration and a rejoicing of the firstfruit(heave offering) by recognizing what God has blessed all with. So in a way, it could be a type of obligation/law to the owner(head of household & land) to recognize these gifts publically with a big POW WOW for the benefit of those under his charge and for himself as all the hearts get joined together each year at this grand festive.

This is a law of thithing/firstfruit and a way of life in the Kingdom of God. I've been perplexed by this text for a year now and now wondering the spiritual and prophetic meaning of it. Does anyone know what this text means spiritually or prophetically?




Blessings
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Elle] #133563
05/19/11 02:54 AM
05/19/11 02:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
It is hard to argue for a mistranslation when the Hebrew word "shekar" is involved here. That is clearly an alcoholic, or "strong drink." Nevertheless, there are conservative Adventists, among whom I believe was the late Dr. Bacchiochi, who have tried to claim that either there was an error in translation or in transcription somewhere along the line. I have not heard of any manuscripts which have been presented having a different wording on this text.

I think one must take a few steps back and look at the big picture here. God is a reasonable God. In those days, there were no such niceties as refrigerators, frozen concentrates, and canned grape juice. The only way to preserve the wine was in its alcoholic state. So if this tithing festival were to have occurred outside of the grape harvest season, the only way to have some grape juice would be to have either A) the alcoholic variety, or B) some form of reconstituted "juice" from raisins (which I have heard of some Adventists suggesting, but have never researched to see if such were actually used in those times as a form of juice).

The juice was to be symbolic of life, as the blood was also. Blood could not be consumed, however, whereas the wine was intended for this purpose. The passage in Deuteronomy has some similarities to Nehemiah 8:10, where the people were commanded to "eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength."

It was to be a happy occasion, one in which the goodness and blessing of the Lord would be recognized and celebrated.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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