Are you suggesting that Satan caused the Great Deluge and the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah? Did Satan cause the death of the first born in Egypt?

I was responding to your quote. You quoted something which you said gave you insight into how God destroys, children I guess, since this is the topic. I was pointing out that in the very quote you cite, the reason is given, which is that God withdrew His Spirit. I also pointed out that this is Scriptural, because the Bible also demonstrates that destruction comes when God withdraws His presence; that His wrath is to leave those who have rejected Him to the results of their choice. I cited many Scriptures which show this.

And this quote eplains how:

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The time is at hand when there will be sorrow in the world that no human balm can heal. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn.

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Also the Spirit of Prophesy states we should use the testimonies to interpret the testonies. The statement from the GC points out:

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Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will.

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Notice the part in bold.

Tom, do you believe Satan charged God with Job's calamities? What about the angel of death that killed all the first born in Egypt, did Satan attempt to claim the credit? What about the Flood that killed millions of people, including children, did Satan try to claim the credit?

I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions without citing passages about how when God withdraws His protection bad things happen. I already know and believe that part of the story. What I want to study is all those situations where God either caused things to happen or permitted evil angels to make things happen. Your standard answer doesn't cover everything.

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

MM: In general, Satan always blames God for everything bad. It is his plan to get us to view God in a wrong light. God's plan was to reveal Himself as He really is in Christ. In Jesus Christ, we see the truth about God, which is that He is generous and kind, merciful, compassionate, and gracious.

To understand God's character, it is imperitive that we understand the destructive power of sin. Otherwise we will make the error of thinking God guilty of that for which sin should be held responsible. In fact, it was for this reason that God allowed the Great Controversy to continue. If God had allowed the inevitable results of sin to take place at the beginning, then an evil seed of doubt would have remained.

I don't see any point in discussing incidents such as the flood and so forth, as we haven't reached a consensus on the death of the wicked, where we have much more evidence as to what the principles involved are. Also I don't how one could possible have a correct view of the incidents such as the flood without understanding the overall principles of the Great Controversy. Easy things first, then more difficult. That's how I think anyway.

Perhaps Phil would be interested in discussing this with you.

Tom, I can see why you are unwilling to study the Flood and the Passover. God's "strange act" doesn't fit in your motif. But one thing is painfully obvious - God has killed millions of people since the beginning of time, including children.

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A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning.

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Instead of ignoring the obvious we should attempt to understand it. There are perfectly good reasons why God kills people, and why He will resurrect them and kill them again. These reasons, whatever they are, should help us understand God's character and kingdom more fully. To know God better is to love Him more.

MM: Tom, I can see why you are unwilling to study the Flood and the Passover. God's "strange act" doesn't fit in your motif. But one thing is painfully obvious - God has killed millions of people since the beginning of time, including children.

Tom: I don't see the point in studying a more difficult subject which depends upon an easier one, when the easier one is not understood. In the past Phil has demonstrated a willingness to discuss this, however.

Old MM: A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning.

MM: Instead of ignoring the obvious we should attempt to understand it.

Tom: You ignore the obvious when it suits you. For example, "Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss" (DA 49). You call this "hyperbole." What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.

In the quote you cited, one could ask, how did the given angel destroy the first born (if one assumes this angel was a holy angel)? Did he do so in a way which is in harmony with how God will destroy the wicked in the end of time? Like this:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

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Or does he do it in some new way which is out of harmony with the above? Is God schitzophrenic? The Spirit of Prophesy tells us:

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So it is with the kingdom of Christ. It is a new creation. Its principles of development are the opposite of those that rule the kingdoms of this world. Earthly governments prevail by physical force; they maintain their dominion by war; but the founder of the new kingdom is the Prince of Peace. (COL 77)

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Earthly governments must prevail by physical force. But God's governments work according to principles wihch are the "opposite" of those used by earthly governments. God's government does not depend on force.

MM: There are perfectly good reasons why God kills people, and why He will resurrect them and kill them again.

Tom: And you ask why I see your view as dark. Just listen to yourself.

MM: These reasons, whatever they are, should help us understand God's character and kingdom more fully. To know God better is to love Him more.

Tom: Well, at least your last sentence is undeniably true.

Tom, it is your view of punishment and death that makes you think my view is dark. You are so sure that your view is right, and that mine is wrong, as a result you seem unable to say whether it was a holy angel or an evil angel that killed all the first-born in Egypt. But, does it really matter how they died? They died, including the children, because God commanded an angel to kill them. An angel cannot withdraw life from a human in the same way God can, consequently, they didn’t die because God merely withdrew their life force. They died because of something an angel did, an angel that did exactly what God commanded him to do.

"When GOD was about to smite the first-born of Egypt, He commanded the Israelites to gather their children from among the Egyptians into their own dwellings and strike their door posts with blood, that the destroying angel might see it and pass over their homes. {5T 505.2}

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by HOLY ANGELS when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

If punishment and death is so wrong and evil, why, then, did Jesus die on the cross? All the suffering and pain, and the cruel death that Jesus endured on the cross on our behalf, is a beautiful and wonderful thing.

When someone is killed, because God commanded it, such a death is a beautiful and wonderful thing. How can it be otherwise? God is love, therefore, whatever He commands, whether it be life or death, is a good thing. That’s why the angels rejoice when the unsaved receive the seven last plagues. Why would they rejoice and praise God if it wasn’t a good thing?

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Tom, how do you explain this type of praise and rejoicing? To my knowledge, you have yet to answer this question. I would appreciate an answer. Can you imagine yourself rejoicing with the angels as you watch the unsaved punish and perish in the lake of fire?

Or, will God have to rebuke you for mourning like He rebuked Samuel for mourning over Saul? There must a good reason why mourning isn’t appropriate in certain situations. King David was rebuked for mourning the loss of his son Absalom. He admitted his fault and immediately went out and encouraged his faithful soldiers. All I'm trying to figure out is why God requires rejoicing when weeping seems more appropriate?

1 Samuel
16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?

Harsh and even cruel as was the reproof to the heart-stricken king, David did not resent it. Seeing that his general was right, he went down to the gate, and with words of courage and commendation greeted his brave soldiers as they marched past him. {PP 745.4}

Ezekiel
24:16 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down.
24:17 Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not [thy] lips, and eat not the bread of men.
24:18 So I spake unto the people in the morning: and at even my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded.

MM: Tom, it is your view of punishment and death that makes you think my view is dark.

Tom: It's not so much your view, as the way you express yourself. You write things like "God has good reason to kill them, and then He will resurrect them and kill them again." "God has killed billions and billions of people." "satisfying His thirst for vengeance." "God is the author of death." Things like that.

MM: You are so sure that your view is right, and that mine is wrong, as a result you seem unable to say whether it was a holy angel or an evil angel that killed all the first-born in Egypt. But, does it really matter how they died?

Tom: Ok, let's say it doesn't matter, and end it at that.

MM: If punishment and death is so wrong and evil, why, then, did Jesus die on the cross?

Tom: The Spirit of Prophesy discusses this here:

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Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion. (DA 758)

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This agrees with Paul's statement in Colossians:

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19 For it was by God's own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God. 20 Through the Son, then, God decided to bring the whole universe back to himself. God made peace through his Son's blood on the cross and so brought back to himself all things, both on earth and in heaven. (Col 1:19, 20 GNB)

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And Peter:

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For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,(1 Pet. 3:18 NJKV)

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You're statement regarding death is sort of an odd one. You write "if punishment and death is so wrong ..." which implies you think death is not "wrong". But death is wrong. It is terrible. It is the final "enemy" to be destroyed by Christ.

MM: All the suffering and pain, and the cruel death that Jesus endured on the cross on our behalf, is a beautiful and wonderful thing.

Tom: It reveals something wonderful about God; that He is willing to do anything, even at infinite cost to Himself, to save His children. I don't think I would call the death itself a beautiful thing. God is beautiful, but what we did to Him was not.

MM: When someone is killed, because God commanded it, such a death is a beautiful and wonderful thing.

Tom: God is beautiful and wonderful. God grieves when even a sparrow dies. Death is not a "beautiful and wonderful" thing in any circumstance. It is the final enemy to be destroyed by Christ.

MM: How can it be otherwise? God is love, therefore, whatever He commands, whether it be life or death, is a good thing.

Tom: Oftentimes what inspiration records as something God "commands" it is something He permits. God permits many things to happen which are not good things.

MM: That’s why the angels rejoice when the unsaved receive the seven last plagues. Why would they rejoice and praise God if it wasn’t a good thing?

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Tom, how do you explain this type of praise and rejoicing? To my knowledge, you have yet to answer this question. I would appreciate an answer. Can you imagine yourself rejoicing with the angels as you watch the unsaved punish and perish in the lake of fire?

Tom: The praise being recorded here is in regards to God's character.

When God's children finally die that final death referred to as the second death, God will weep, "How can I give you up?" (Hos. 11). We will have the opportunity to comfort God. When we see loved ones we know, perhaps children or spouses or parents or good friends, we will weep as well, as we have never wept before. Death is a terrible thing.

Eventually there will be rejoicing for the fact that sin has been forever defeated and will never come up again. And there will be rejoicing throughout all eternity regarding God's wonderful character.

MM: Or, will God have to rebuke you for mourning like He rebuked Samuel for mourning over Saul? There must a good reason why mourning isn’t appropriate in certain situations. King David was rebuked for mourning the loss of his son Absalom. He admitted his fault and immediately went out and encouraged his faithful soldiers. All I'm trying to figure out is why God requires rejoicing when weeping seems more appropriate?

1 Samuel
16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?

Harsh and even cruel as was the reproof to the heart-stricken king, David did not resent it. Seeing that his general was right, he went down to the gate, and with words of courage and commendation greeted his brave soldiers as they marched past him. {PP 745.4}

Ezekiel
24:16 Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down.
24:17 Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not [thy] lips, and eat not the bread of men.
24:18 So I spake unto the people in the morning: and at even my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded.

Tom: The perfect example we have of God's character is Jesus Christ. He wept with those who wept. At the funeral He attended of Lazarus, He wept inconsolably. It tells us something wonderful about God that the things which affect us affect Him. He rejoices with those who rejoice, and weeps with those who weep.

Regarding the examples you gave, there were extenuating circumstances. God is certainly not opposed to us grieving for our loved ones.