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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13335
08/10/05 02:50 AM
08/10/05 02:50 AM
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OP
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quote:
God permits many things to happen which are not good things.
I agree. He is ultimately in control.
quote:
The praise being recorded here is in regards to God's character.
Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
As I read it, Tom, the angels are referring to the effect of the plagues on the unsaved. The phrase, “Thou art righteous, O Lord… BECAUSE thou hast judged thus” is referring to the effect of the plagues on the unsaved. The angels believe God is righteous because of the effect of the plagues on the unsaved. The phrase, “Thou hast given them blood to drink” also refers to the effect of the plagues on the unsaved.
God will treat the unsaved in the same way they treated the saints, “for they are worthy.” And the angels, beholding the effect of the plagues on the unsaved, declare, “True and righteous are thy judgments.” They are praising His “judgments”, that is, the effect of the plagues on the unsaved, not His character. Although, it is obvious, to me at least, that the effect of the plagues on the unsaved helps us understand the character of God.
quote:
Regarding the examples you gave, there were extenuating circumstances.
They are more than examples, Tom, they really happened. We can learn lots about the character of God from them. The question is – What do they teach us about God’s character. I’m not talking about all the other circumstances where weeping was appropriate. I’m talking about these extenuating ones, and all the other places in the Bible where godly people rejoiced over the death of the wicked. For example:
1 Samuel
18:6 And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of music.
18:7 And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.
quote:
God is certainly not opposed to us grieving for our loved ones.
Of course not. Peace and pain cohabitate in the hearts of those who love and serve Jesus.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13336
08/10/05 05:21 AM
08/10/05 05:21 AM
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Old Tom: God permits many things to happen which are not good things. MM: I agree. He is ultimately in control. Tom: Neither I nor anyone else I know of has asserted anything to the contrary, yet you repeatedly make this point. Why? Old Tom: The praise being recorded here is in regards to God's character. Revelation 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. MM: As I read it, Tom, the angels are referring to the effect of the plagues on the unsaved. The phrase, “Thou art righteous, O Lord… BECAUSE thou hast judged thus” is referring to the effect of the plagues on the unsaved. The angels believe God is righteous because of the effect of the plagues on the unsaved. The phrase, “Thou hast given them blood to drink” also refers to the effect of the plagues on the unsaved. God will treat the unsaved in the same way they treated the saints, “for they are worthy.” And the angels, beholding the effect of the plagues on the unsaved, declare, “True and righteous are thy judgments.” They are praising His “judgments”, that is, the effect of the plagues on the unsaved, not His character. Although, it is obvious, to me at least, that the effect of the plagues on the unsaved helps us understand the character of God. Tom: Here's from the Spirit of Prophesy: quote:
Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares, "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.[1 REV. 16:2-6, 8, 9.] By condemning the people of God to death they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood, as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of his time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit, and were seeking to do the same work, with these murderers of the prophets.(GC88 628)
This brings out that the wicked are judged because they have as truly incurred the guilt of the blood of the slain as if they had themselves caused their death, just like Christ said of those whom He was addressing.
Here's another statement from the Great Controversy regarding the plagues:
quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.(GC 614)
She makes a comparison of the plagues with the destruction of Jerusalem, which she does in several places (including the chapter on the destruction of Jerusalem). Here's what she writes regarding that destruction:
quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. (GC 35, 36)
We see the same principles expressed over and over again. When the Spirit of God is rejected, then those who have rejected His protection are left to the vindictive power of the evil one. This is God's wrath. This is how the destruction of Jerusalem occurred, and how the last plagues will occur.
God really is kind and gracious, wonderful in every way. He would protect all His children from the results of sin if He could, be He will not force the will. Persistently resisted, He will eventually leave those who have rejected Him to the resuls of their choice. God is just in so doing, just as proclaimed.
Old Tom: Regarding the examples you gave, there were extenuating circumstances.
MM: They are more than examples, Tom, they really happened. We can learn lots about the character of God from them. The question is – What do they teach us about God’s character. I’m not talking about all the other circumstances where weeping was appropriate. I’m talking about these extenuating ones, and all the other places in the Bible where godly people rejoiced over the death of the wicked.
Tom: What exactly is it that you want us to learn about God's character? That He doesn't weep with those who weep? That He doesn't grieve for His children when they die? That He doesn't want us to weep for our loved ones? What do you think God is like?
Is God like Jesus? Or is Jesus just one aspect of God's character, His good side?
MM: For example:
1 Samuel
18:6 And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of music.
18:7 And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.
Tom: I have no idea why you are quoting this. If you would understand God's character, the place to look is Jesus Christ. He is the Word of God; God's thought made audible. The purpose of His mission was to reveal the character of God. Start with Christ, and then work from their to more difficult things.
Old Tom: God is certainly not opposed to us grieving for our loved ones.
MM: Of course not. Peace and pain cohabitate in the hearts of those who love and serve Jesus.
Tom: Agreement!
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13337
08/10/05 11:53 PM
08/10/05 11:53 PM
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OP
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quote:
God really is kind and gracious, wonderful in every way. He would protect all His children from the results of sin if He could, be He will not force the will.
Amen.
quote:
When the Spirit of God is rejected, then those who have rejected His protection are left to the vindictive power of the evil one. This is God's wrath.
This is one form of the wrath of God. But not the only form of His wrath. God employs good and evil alike to mete out His judgments on the unsaved. He also harnesses the elements of nature to destroy the the earth and the unsaved. Many and varied are the ways and means God uses to punish and kill the unsaved. Either way He is ultimately responsible. Why? Because He is ultimately in control, something even you agree with.
quote:
What exactly is it that you want us to learn about God's character? That He doesn't weep with those who weep? That He doesn't grieve for His children when they die? That He doesn't want us to weep for our loved ones? What do you think God is like?
Good questions, Tom. God weeps when it’s time to weep, and He executes judgment when it’s time to execute judgment. What can we learn about God’s wrath and character from OT stories like the one I quoted above, the one you said, “I have no idea why you are quoting this.” Jesus drove out the money changers, and they were totally terrified. Why? Because “divinity flashed through humanity” (DA 162).
Does God ever employ force?
DA 130
Satan had questioned whether Jesus was the Son of God. In his summary dismissal he had proof that he could not gainsay. Divinity flashed through suffering humanity. Satan had no power to resist the command. Writhing with humiliation and rage, he was forced to withdraw from the presence of the world's Redeemer. Christ's victory was as complete as had been the failure of Adam. {DA 130.3}
quote:
Revelation
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Tom, do you believe that the angels mentioned here symbolize evil angels pouring out the wrath of God?
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13338
08/11/05 01:38 AM
08/11/05 01:38 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: When the Spirit of God is rejected, then those who have rejected His protection are left to the vindictive power of the evil one. This is God's wrath. MM: This is one form of the wrath of God. But not the only form of His wrath. Tom: Why do you think there are multiple forms of God's wrath? Consider the following statement: quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 36)
This brings out the principle that suffering is presented by the evil one is a result of a direct decree of God when it is in reality to his own efforts. This is what the Great Controversy is all about, isn't it? Determining if God is really as Christ presented Him to be, or if He is like Satan says He is.
MM: God employs good and evil alike to mete out His judgments on the unsaved. He also harnesses the elements of nature to destroy the the earth and the unsaved. Many and varied are the ways and means God uses to punish and kill the unsaved. Either way He is ultimately responsible. Why? Because He is ultimately in control, something even you agree with.
Tom: Let's be clear that what I agree with is that God is in control. Nobody denies this. However I do not agree that God is responsible. Satan is ultimately responsible for all evil, and those who take his side of the Great Controversy share in his responsibility to a lesser extent. However God is 100% innocent.
Old Tom: What exactly is it that you want us to learn about God's character? That He doesn't weep with those who weep? That He doesn't grieve for His children when they die? That He doesn't want us to weep for our loved ones? What do you think God is like?
MM: Good questions, Tom. God weeps when it’s time to weep, and He executes judgment when it’s time to execute judgment.
Tom: Can He do both simultaneously? Or is executing judgement a happy time for God? Does He enjoy seeing His children die, whom He loves with all His heart?
MM: What can we learn about God’s wrath and character from OT stories like the one I quoted above, the one you said, “I have no idea why you are quoting this.” Jesus drove out the money changers, and they were totally terrified. Why? Because “divinity flashed through humanity” (DA 162).
Tom: The moneychangers were driven out because sin cannot abide in God's presense. His purity makes those who are deliberately rebellious extremely uncomfortable. When Christ comes a second time, the wicked cry out for the rocks to fall upon them. They would rather have a mountain fall upon them rather than to look into the face of their Redeemer who loves them with an everlasting love.
Jesus never did a thing to hurt anybody. When He was rejected, He simply left. When His disciples asked if they should ask for fire to come down from heaven to destroy those who were rejecting them, He explained that they didn't understand the spirit they were representing. Cruelty is Satanic.
MM: Does God ever employ force?
DA 130
Satan had questioned whether Jesus was the Son of God. In his summary dismissal he had proof that he could not gainsay. Divinity flashed through suffering humanity. Satan had no power to resist the command. Writhing with humiliation and rage, he was forced to withdraw from the presence of the world's Redeemer. Christ's victory was as complete as had been the failure of Adam. {DA 130.3}
Tom: Do you think this means that God physically overpowered Satan? Do you think physical force was the means God used to force Satan to withdraw? Or could it be that God is a consuming fire to sin whereever it is found?
MM: Revelation
15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Tom, do you believe that the angels mentioned here symbolize evil angels pouring out the wrath of God?
Tom: I think this statement from Revelation describes the same thing described here:
quote:
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.(GC 614)
To answer your question directly, I would say no, I don't think the angels symbolized in Revelation are evil angels. I think they are holy angels, exercizing God's wrath in the manner explained in the GC 614 quote.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13339
08/11/05 04:16 PM
08/11/05 04:16 PM
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OP
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quote:
Can He do both simultaneously? Or is executing judgement a happy time for God? Does He enjoy seeing His children die, whom He loves with all His heart?
A happy time? Of course not. “I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” (Ex 20:5, 6)
quote:
The moneychangers were driven out because sin cannot abide in God's presense. His purity makes those who are deliberately rebellious extremely uncomfortable.
Well, if cracking a whip and tossing over tables wasn’t necessary, even ungodly, why, then, did Jesus resort to such ungodly tactics? Why didn't He just walk into the temple and wait for everyone to flee for their lives? Also, how was it that the mob was able to capture, torture, and crucify Him, if, as you say, evil people cannot abide in the presence of God, that they flee from His presence?
quote:
Do you think this means that God physically overpowered Satan? Do you think physical force was the means God used to force Satan to withdraw? Or could it be that God is a consuming fire to sin whereever it is found?
I asked first. You tell me. Did Satan implode when he was forced to obey God’s command?
quote:
MM: Tom, do you believe that the angels mentioned here symbolize evil angels pouring out the wrath of God?
Tom: To answer your question directly, I would say no, I don't think the angels symbolized in Revelation are evil angels. I think they are holy angels, exercizing God's wrath in the manner explained in the GC 614 quote.
“… the angels symbolized in Revelation…” Why do you think the angels in Revelation are symbolic? Are you using the SOP to interpret the Bible? Aren’t we supposed to use the Bible to interpret the Bible? Why would God have to commission holy angels to commission evil angels to punish and kill the unsaved with plagues? Also, how would an evil angel fulfill the 5th and 6th plagues?
On another note, are you going to address the other Bible passages I quoted earlier? The ones dealing with God's people and angels rejoicing over the punisment and death of the unsaved? How do these inspired insights help us better understand the wrath of God?
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13340
08/11/05 08:10 PM
08/11/05 08:10 PM
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Old Tom: Can He do both simultaneously? Or is executing judgement a happy time for God? Does He enjoy seeing His children die, whom He loves with all His heart? MM: A happy time? Of course not. “I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” (Ex 20:5, 6) Tom: The quote you cited, properly understand, does not agree with your view of things, but with mine: quote:
"Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me." It is inevitable that children should suffer from the consequences of parental wrongdoing, but they are not punished for the parents' guilt, except as they participate in their sins. It is usually the case, however, that children walk in the steps of their parents. By inheritance and example the sons become partakers of the father's sin. Wrong tendencies, perverted appetites, and debased morals, as well as physical disease and degeneracy, are transmitted as a legacy from father to son, to the third and fourth generation. This fearful truth should have a solemn power to restrain men from following a course of sin.(PP 306)
God was not describing something which He arbitrarily does to people because He is angry, but rather the inevitable results of sin, as EGW points out above.
Old Tom: The moneychangers were driven out because sin cannot abide in God's presense. His purity makes those who are deliberately rebellious extremely uncomfortable.
MM: Well, if cracking a whip and tossing over tables wasn’t necessary, even ungodly, why, then, did Jesus resort to such ungodly tactics? Why didn't He just walk into the temple and wait for everyone to flee for their lives? Also, how was it that the mob was able to capture, torture, and crucify Him, if, as you say, evil people cannot abide in the presence of God, that they flee from His presence?
Tom: Jesus wanted to save them. It was just like He said here:
quote:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
In order to get their attention, Christ resorted to unusual tactics. BTW, I don't think it's wise of you to refer to Christ's tactics as "ungodly."
The principle God used here was one of enlightening the conscience. This is the same principle which will be used in the last days and in the judgment:
quote:
The Holy Spirit will invest the announcement with a sanctity and solemnity which will appear terrible in the ears of those who would not hear the pleadings of Infinite Love, and who have not responded to the offers of pardon and forgiveness. Injured and insulted Deity will speak, proclaiming the sins that have been hidden. As the priests and rulers, full of indignation and terror, sought refuge in flight at the cleansing of the temple, so will it be in the work for these last days.(1888 Mat. 1490)
Remember when Christ wrote on the sand and those around the woman caught in adultery all left? This is the same principle.
Not everybody left when Christ cleansed the temple. The sick and children stayed around. It was those with a guilty conscience which fled. Immediately after cleansing the temple, children were sitting on His lap.
Here's how EGW describes the actions of those who fled:
quote:
And why did the priests flee from the temple? Why did they not stand their ground? He who commanded them to go was a carpenter's son, a poor Galilean, without earthly rank or power. Why did they not resist Him? Why did they leave the gain so ill acquired, and flee at the command of One whose outward appearance was so humble?
Christ spoke with the authority of a king, and in His appearance, and in the tones of His voice, there was that which they had no power to resist. At the word of command they realized, as they had never realized before, their true position as hypocrites and robbers. When divinity flashed through humanity, not only did they see indignation on Christ's countenance; they realized the import of His words. They felt as if before the throne of the eternal Judge, with their sentence passed on them for time and for eternity.(DA 162)
It was an opening of their minds to their guilt which caused them to fled. This is what the revelation of divinity always does. Remember Isaiah? "Woe is me, for I am undone".
God would reveal Himself to us in such a way that it would result in our healing. This is His intention. However, if we refuse, then one day we will be destroyed by the revelation of His character (which is goodness and love). The response of the moneychangers is an object lesson illustrating this.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13341
08/11/05 10:02 PM
08/11/05 10:02 PM
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Tom: The post was already long, so I split it up. Old Tom: Do you think this means that God physically overpowered Satan? Do you think physical force was the means God used to force Satan to withdraw? Or could it be that God is a consuming fire to sin whereever it is found? MM: I asked first. You tell me. Did Satan implode when he was forced to obey God’s command? Tom: It would be easier if you referred to what you are talking about. Asked what first? This is awkward. I have to go back and look to see what you're talking about. What don't you just post it? I looked back, and still don't see that you asked me any question. I see that you made a statement regarding Satan being forced to withdraw, in response to my question regarding if God uses force. Apparently you think the answer is yes, but I believe the answer is no, because of quotes like the following: quote:
The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2. (DA 22)
In regards to me question regarding Satan, the answer is no, God did not use force. God used truth. Truth forced Satan to back down, just like it forced those who were accusing the woman caught in adultery to back down, and the moneychangers to flee.
Old MM: Tom, do you believe that the angels mentioned here symbolize evil angels pouring out the wrath of God?
Old Tom: To answer your question directly, I would say no, I don't think the angels symbolized in Revelation are evil angels. I think they are holy angels, exercizing God's wrath in the manner explained in the GC 614 quote.
MM: “… the angels symbolized in Revelation…” Why do you think the angels in Revelation are symbolic? Are you using the SOP to interpret the Bible? Aren’t we supposed to use the Bible to interpret the Bible? Why would God have to commission holy angels to commission evil angels to punish and kill the unsaved with plagues? Also, how would an evil angel fulfill the 5th and 6th plagues?
Tom: The holy angels hold back the winds of strife. That's in the Bible.
What do you think of the SOP quote from GC I provided? Do you think it's a "hyperbole"?
MM: On another note, are you going to address the other Bible passages I quoted earlier? The ones dealing with God's people and angels rejoicing over the punisment and death of the unsaved? How do these inspired insights help us better understand the wrath of God?
Tom: I responded to these passages already. In fact, it is my reponse to these passages that you are responding to here.
Here's a question for you. What do you think this means?
quote:
Matthew 22:1-14 [1] Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: [2] "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. [3] He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. [4] "Then he sent some more servants and said, `Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.' [5] "But they paid no attention and went off -- one to his field, another to his business. [6] The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. [7] The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13342
08/11/05 10:02 PM
08/11/05 10:02 PM
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quote:
God was not describing something which He arbitrarily does to people because He is angry, but rather the inevitable results of sin, as EGW points out above.
Are you suggesting God has never punished unsaved sinners for their sins? Are you saying sin always punishes them, and that God never punishes them in addition to them suffering the natural consequences of their sins? What about the rich man who lived lavishly all his life? Did sin punish him before he died? There are lots of sinners who never reap what they sow until after the second resurrection.
quote:
In order to get their attention, Christ resorted to unusual tactics. BTW, I don't think it's wise of you to refer to Christ's tactics as "ungodly."
I didn’t. I was implying that’s what you implied. But you didn’t answer my question. You said, “The moneychangers were driven out because sin cannot abide in God's presense.” If sin cannot abide in the presence of God, why, then, did Jesus have to resort to such “unusual tactics”? Isn’t Deity enough to get their attention? If not, why not? Also, who said they were unusual tactics? Is that a kind of euphemism?
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13343
08/12/05 04:08 AM
08/12/05 04:08 AM
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Old Tom:God was not describing something which He arbitrarily does to people because He is angry, but rather the inevitable results of sin, as EGW points out above.
MM: Are you suggesting God has never punished unsaved sinners for their sins? Are you saying sin always punishes them, and that God never punishes them in addition to them suffering the natural consequences of their sins? What about the rich man who lived lavishly all his life? Did sin punish him before he died? There are lots of sinners who never reap what they sow until after the second resurrection.
Tom: I'm suggesting just what I wrote. The Scripture you cited supports my position, not yours, as the EGW quote I cited shows.
Old Tom: In order to get their attention, Christ resorted to unusual tactics. BTW, I don't think it's wise of you to refer to Christ's tactics as "ungodly."
MM: I didn’t. I was implying that’s what you implied.
Tom: That wasn't very clear. If you're going to write that Christ's actions are "ungodly" you should make clear what you mean. I never stated or implied such a thing. This was your idea, and yours alone.
MM: But you didn’t answer my question. You said, “The moneychangers were driven out because sin cannot abide in God's presense.” If sin cannot abide in the presence of God, why, then, did Jesus have to resort to such “unusual tactics”?
Tom: Read the section from DA I quote. That answers your questions. It's right there. I emphasized the particularly relevant part in bold.
MM: Isn’t Deity enough to get their attention? If not, why not? Also, who said they were unusual tactics? Is that a kind of euphemism?
Tom: Read the text. Pay attention to the part in bold.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13344
08/12/05 05:15 PM
08/12/05 05:15 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
MM: Are you suggesting God has never punished unsaved sinners for their sins? Are you saying sin always punishes them, and that God never punishes them in addition to them suffering the natural consequences of their sins? What about the rich man who lived lavishly all his life? Did sin punish him before he died? There are lots of sinners who never reap what they sow until after the second resurrection.
Tom: I'm suggesting just what I wrote. The Scripture you cited supports my position, not yours, as the EGW quote I cited shows.
Okay. But I’m still not sure what you believe. Are you suggesting God has never punished unsaved sinners for their sins? Are you saying sin always punishes them, and that God never punishes them in addition to them suffering the natural consequences of their sins? What about the rich man who lived lavishly all his life? Did sin punish him before he died? There are lots of sinners who never reap what they sow until after the second resurrection, right? I would appreciate an answer for each of these questions.
Also, you said, “The moneychangers were driven out because sin cannot abide in God's presense.” If sin cannot abide in the presence of God, why, then, did Jesus have to resort to such “unusual tactics”? Divinity flashed through humanity and it terrified them so much so that they fled for their lives. Why did He have to drive them out by cracking a whip and turning over tables?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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