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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13355
08/14/05 10:52 PM
08/14/05 10:52 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
If God acts contrary to His law, His is acting in an unrightoues manner.
Obviously, then, His “white lies” are not false accusations, and His “killing” is not murder.
quote:
Sometimes Satan chooses to prosper the wicked, as Claudia's quote explains.
Okay, then, does Satan exercise supernatural power to prevent people from experiencing the natural consequences of sinning? Can Satan override the inevitable results of sinning when God withdraws His divine protection? If so, then in what way are the results of sinning natural? That is, if they depend on what Satan does and doesn’t do, how can the consequences of sinning be natural? How can we reap what we sow if it depends on what God does or doesn’t do, or if it depends on what Satan does or doesn’t do?
If God’s way of punishing sinners is simply to withdraw His protection, to allow the natural results of sinning to run its course, and/or to permit Satan to punish them according God’s guidelines, how, then, can these things be true if in fact some sinners never do suffer the natural consequences of sinning? Will they suffer for them after the second resurrection? If so, how? Can nature still run its course after the fact, after the sinner has been dead for over 1000 years? Do you see what I mean? I’m having a hard time understanding your view.
Please answer each one of these questions I've postd here, because they are important to me. All of the question I ask are important to me, most of them are not rhetorical.
quote:
MM: Since the natural consequences of sinning are naturally unpleasant, and since not all sinners automatically reap what they sow the moment they sow it, does that mean God uses supernatural power to overrule the natural results of sinning, to prevent them from reaping what they sow?
Tom: Yes, He does this for all of us. We have all sinned; we should all be dead. It is by the grace of God that any of us are alive. To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life. (DA Chapter 72 "In Rememberance of Me")
I’m not talking about the second death, Tom. My question concerns reaping and sowing now, not after we die the first death. Does God exercise supernatural power to prevent us from experiencing, the moment we sin, the natural consequences of sinning? If so, why? Does He have that much control over us without violating the rules of engagement?
quote:
When sin does has results, such as the Tsunami which hit at the end of last year, God gets blamed.
Who sinned? Did Satan take it upon himself to send the Tsunami? Did he disregard a direct order from God not kill all those people with a flood? If it wasn’t God’s will, why, then, did He just sit back and let Satan do it? Is God powerless to stop Satan from killing people?
quote:
Say a person smokes and gets lung cancer. This person is experiencing the consequences of sin.
Did God withdraw His protection and they got cancer and died? Or, did Satan override God’s will and they died of lung cancer? What about all the smokers who did not die of lung cancer, did Satan bless them?
quote:
The death of which sin is the wages is not a death which can be experienced in this lifetime (excluding Christ).
Why not? Who said, and why? What is the difference between the first and second deaths? Isn’t the first death dead enough? How dead is dead? If the natural consequences of sin is death, then the sting of sin has been served, right? What more can God add to it?
quote:
MM: In the case of King David numbering the children of Israel, did the 70,000 that the angel of the LORD killed with pestilence suffer the natural consequences of sin? Or, did God takes measures to punish them in a way that wasn’t the natural results of sinning? How could God offer King David three choices? Can God really tailor make the consequences of sinning? Is there any reason to believe that the angel of the LORD was an evil angel?
You forgot to address this case. What thinkest thou?
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13356
08/14/05 10:55 PM
08/14/05 10:55 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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PS - I'm not ready to answer your questions yet. I need more information and answers from you before I can tackle your questions. Please bear with me. I'll be better able to answer your questions after you answer mine (posted above). quote:
Tom: In the destruction of Jerusslem, what happened? Did God kill the Jews? You appear to be saying that God used the Romans to kill the Jews. If that's what you think, how did God do that? Did He put the idea into their heads that they should kill the Jews? Was it God's will that the Jews be killed? Was God active or passive in the destruction of Jerusalem? Are the principles of the destruction of Jerusalem the same as those involved in the last plagues? Are they the same as those involved in the destruction of the wicked at the end of time? Are they any different than the principles involved in other acts where the wicked are destroyed?
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13357
08/15/05 12:12 AM
08/15/05 12:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom:If God acts contrary to His law, His is acting in an unrightoues manner. MM: Obviously, then, His “white lies” are not false accusations, and His “killing” is not murder. Tom: If God can tell "white lies" and kill and still be righteous, then we can too. Correct? Or does simply being God allow Him to do things which are evil if someone else did them? Old Tom: Sometimes Satan chooses to prosper the wicked, as Claudia's quote explains. MM: Okay, then, does Satan exercise supernatural power to prevent people from experiencing the natural consequences of sinning? Tom: If what you have in mind is death, the answer is no, it's not Satan that exercizes supernatural power to prevent people from experiencing the natural consequences of sinning, it's God. It's called grace, and it's only because of God's grace that any of us live. FW 22 discusses this in detail. I simple statement of this principle is "to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life." (DA 660) MM: Can Satan override the inevitable results of sinning when God withdraws His divine protection? Tom: No. Satan cannot override death, but God can and does. Death only occurs at the judgment. MM: If so, then in what way are the results of sinning natural? That is, if they depend on what Satan does and doesn’t do, how can the consequences of sinning be natural? How can we reap what we sow if it depends on what God does or doesn’t do, or if it depends on what Satan does or doesn’t do? Tom: What specifically are you thinking of here? If you have in mind a specific indicident I've quoted from the Spirit of Prophesy, please let me know which. MM: If God’s way of punishing sinners is simply to withdraw His protection, to allow the natural results of sinning to run its course, and/or to permit Satan to punish them according God’s guidelines, how, then, can these things be true if in fact some sinners never do suffer the natural consequences of sinning? Will they suffer for them after the second resurrection? If so, how? Can nature still run its course after the fact, after the sinner has been dead for over 1000 years? Do you see what I mean? I’m having a hard time understanding your view. Tom: No, I don't understand what you mean. The result of sin is death. God exercizes supernatural power to prevent this from happening until after the resurrection. In the plagues, God will withdraw His protection, which is simbolized by the angels in Revelation you have alluded to. MM: Please answer each one of these questions I've postd here, because they are important to me. All of the question I ask are important to me, most of them are not rhetorical. Tom: I'm trying to answer them, but I'm not understanding them. If I haven't answered them, please try again. Old MM: Since the natural consequences of sinning are naturally unpleasant, and since not all sinners automatically reap what they sow the moment they sow it, does that mean God uses supernatural power to overrule the natural results of sinning, to prevent them from reaping what they sow? Old Tom: Yes, He does this for all of us. We have all sinned; we should all be dead. It is by the grace of God that any of us are alive. To the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life. (DA Chapter 72 "In Rememberance of Me") MM: I’m not talking about the second death, Tom. My question concerns reaping and sowing now, not after we die the first death. Does God exercise supernatural power to prevent us from experiencing, the moment we sin, the natural consequences of sinning? Tom: Death IS the result of sinning. MM: If so, why? Does He have that much control over us without violating the rules of engagement? Tom: I don't know what you're asking. What do you have in mind by the "natural results of sin"? This is not an expression I have used, so you'll have to explain what you mean by it. Old Tom: When sin does has results, such as the Tsunami which hit at the end of last year, God gets blamed. MM:Who sinned? Tom: First Satan sinned. Then Adam sinned, and plunged the whole race into sin. MM: Did Satan take it upon himself to send the Tsunami? Did he disregard a direct order from God not kill all those people with a flood? If it wasn’t God’s will, why, then, did He just sit back and let Satan do it? Is God powerless to stop Satan from killing people? Tom: God is constantly preventing Satan from killing people: quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan (GC 36)
Old Tom: Say a person smokes and gets lung cancer. This person is experiencing the consequences of sin.
MM: Did God withdraw His protection and they got cancer and died?
Tom: No, they got cancer because they smoked.
MM: Or, did Satan override God’s will and they died of lung cancer?
Tom: No, they got cancer because they smoked. However, Satan was resonsible for the poison which caused their death (according to the Spirit of Prophesy).
MM: What about all the smokers who did not die of lung cancer, did Satan bless them?
Tom: You've missed the whole point of my comment. Here's the context:
quote:
MM: For those who do suffer the natural consequences of their sins in this lifetime why is it necessary for God to resurrect them at the end of time?
Tom: Say a person smokes and gets lung cancer. This person is experiencing the consequences of sin. However, this has nothing to do with the judgment.
You were asking why it was necessary for those who have experienced some consequence of sin in this life to be resurrected for the judgment. I explained that you were confusing two different things, one the death of which sin is the wages, and the other being other consequences of sin. I didn't make any comment about Satan blessing people who smoke.
Old Tom: The death of which sin is the wages is not a death which can be experienced in this lifetime (excluding Christ).
MM: Why not? Who said, and why? What is the difference between the first and second deaths?
Tom: God has given us a probationary time in which to develop character. There will be a judgment, and the righteous will be translated/resurrected at Christ's coming while the wicked will be resurrected 1,000 years later. The first death is that which we all experience. The second death is what Christ experienced.
MM: Isn’t the first death dead enough?
Tom: Enough for what?
MM: How dead is dead?
Tom: ???
MM: If the natural consequences of sin is death, then the sting of sin has been served, right?
Tom: You mean by what Jesus calls "sleep". No.
MM: What more can God add to it?
Tom: Add to what? Sleep? Regarding the 70,000, let's just keep to what we already have on our plate. That's enough. Specifically we have a number of events we can study:
1) The death of Christ.
2) The destruction of the wicked.
3) The destruction of Jerusalem.
4) The last plagues.
These are enough for us to get a good picture as to God's true character. Regarding the cross, EGW wrote:
quote:
The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. (GC 315)
What was God's role in Christ's death? Did God kill Him? Understanding the cross can help us understand how God deals with sin.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13358
08/15/05 03:23 AM
08/15/05 03:23 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
Or does simply being God allow Him to do things which are evil if someone else did them?
“Be ye angry, and sin not.” Although born-again believers are capable of righteous indignation, in most cases they are incapable of such behaviour. King David, on the other hand, killed his “ten thousands” and was considered sinless. Is God so different that if He kills someone He is evil? I don’t think so.
quote:
If what you have in mind is death …
The result of sin is death.
Not at all. Death is not the only natural consequence of sinning. The plan of salvation has made it possible for lesser results to occur. Do you believe that the only possible result of sin is death? If so, how, then, is it that we have survived so many sins? I realize you believe it’s because God keeps us alive supernaturally by overriding the results of sin, but that answer opens a can of worms, doesn’t it? That means much of the woe in this world is because God keeps evil people alive.
quote:
MM: Did Satan take it upon himself to send the Tsunami? Did he disregard a direct order from God not kill all those people with a flood? If it wasn’t God’s will, why, then, did He just sit back and let Satan do it?
I didn’t see where you answered these questions.
quote:
Did God kill Him?
No. Jesus laid down and took up His own life. Nobody killed Him.
quote:
MM: In the case of King David numbering the children of Israel, did the 70,000 that the angel of the LORD killed with pestilence suffer the natural consequences of sin? Or, did God take measures to punish them in a way that wasn’t the natural results of sinning? How could God offer King David three choices? Can God really tailor make the consequences of sinning? Is there any reason to believe that the angel of the LORD was an evil angel?
I’m not ready to pass this one up. Please answer my questions.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13359
08/15/05 04:00 AM
08/15/05 04:00 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Old Tom: Or does simply being God allow Him to do things which are evil if someone else did them? MM: “Be ye angry, and sin not.” Although born-again believers are capable of righteous indignation, in most cases they are incapable of such behaviour. King David, on the other hand, killed his “ten thousands” and was considered sinless. Is God so different that if He kills someone He is evil? I don’t think so. Tom: So it's OK to kill as long as the person killed is evil? Old Tom: If what you have in mind is death … The result of sin is death. MM: Not at all. Death is not the only natural consequence of sinning. Tom: You're thinking of the wrong death. It is the second death which is the inevitable result of sin. MM: The plan of salvation has made it possible for lesser results to occur. Do you believe that the only possible result of sin is death? If so, how, then, is it that we have survived so many sins? I realize you believe it’s because God keeps us alive supernaturally by overriding the results of sin, but that answer opens a can of worms, doesn’t it? That means much of the woe in this world is because God keeps evil people alive. Tom: This principle is explained in DA 764; the part that talks about why God did not allow Satan to suffer the inevitable results of sin. Old MM: Did Satan take it upon himself to send the Tsunami? Did he disregard a direct order from God not kill all those people with a flood? If it wasn’t God’s will, why, then, did He just sit back and let Satan do it? MM: I didn’t see where you answered these questions. Tom: Yes. What??? None of the evil that happens in the world is God's will. The reason God allows it to happen is explained in the same DA 764 quote mentioned above. Perhaps I should quote it, since I've referred to it twice. quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. (DA 764)
This is a remarkable quote, and a remarkable chapter. I've quoted it many times, the other times being to establish the principles involved in the destruction of the wicked. This time it is for another purpose, which is to address your questions as to why God overrides the inevitable results of sin. The emphasized portions address this question.
Old Tom: Did God kill Him?
MM: No. Jesus laid down and took up His own life. Nobody killed Him.
Tom: According to the Spirit of Prophesy, Christ took the punishment which was to fall upon man so that he could have another chance. Therefore the death of Christ reveals how man will die if they do not accept that choice.
Here's a quote which brings out this point:
quote:
The instant man accepted the temptations of Satan, and did the very things God had said he should not do, Christ, the Son of God, stood between the living and the dead, saying, "Let the punishment fall on Me. I will stand in man's place. He shall have another chance" (Letter 22, Feb. 13, 1900). {1BC 1085.2}
Since Christ suffered man's punishment, and stood in man's place, it must be the case that Christ died the death which man would have died had He not stood in his place. Since God did not kill Christ, it follows that God would not kill man for whom Christ took the punishment.
Regarding the 70,000, I really think the four items I mentioned are enough:
1) The cross of Christ.
2) The destruction of the wicked.
3) The destruction of Jerusalem.
4) The last plagues.
There's enough information in studying these things to understand God's character. When these incidents are understood, and the underlying principles understood, then we can apply them to other situations of which we have less information.
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Re: God has killed millions of children! Why?
#13360
08/15/05 02:14 PM
08/15/05 02:14 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Okay. I am happy to let this be the last word.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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