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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Green Cochoa] #133618
05/20/11 09:08 PM
05/20/11 09:08 PM
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I don't see this as a time prophecy in the same sense as I see the time prophecies of the 70 weeks, 1260 days, 2300 days, etc.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction Christ said, "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." This prophecy will again be fulfilled. The abounding iniquity of that day finds its counterpart in this generation. So with the prediction in regard to the preaching of the gospel. Before the fall of Jerusalem, Paul, writing by the Holy Spirit, declared that the gospel was preached to "every creature which is under heaven." Colossians 1:23. So now, before the coming of the Son of man, the everlasting gospel is to be preached "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." Revelation 14:6, 14. God "hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world." Acts 17:31. Christ tells us when that day shall be ushered in. He does not say that all the world will be converted, but that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." By giving the gospel to the world it is in our power to hasten our Lord's return. We are not only to look for but to hasten the coming of the day of God. 2 Peter 3:12, margin. Had the church of Christ done her appointed work as the Lord ordained, the whole world would before this have been warned, and the Lord Jesus would have come to our earth in power and great glory. {DA 633.3}

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible scene was but a faint shadow. The second advent of the Son of God is foretold by lips which make no mistake: "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." [Matthew 24:30, 31.] Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed with the brightness of his coming. [2 Thessalonians 2:8.] {4SP 37.1}

These lessons are for our benefit. We need to stay our faith upon God, for there is just before us a time that will try men's souls. Christ, upon the Mount of Olives, rehearsed the fearful judgments that were to precede His second coming: "Ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars." "Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." While these prophecies received a partial fulfillment at the destruction of Jerusalem, they have a more direct application to the last days. {5T 753.1}


The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was a time prophecy first given by Ezekiel and reiterated by Jesus Himself. As a time prophecy, Ellen White recognizes a dual fulfillment of it for the time of Jerusalem's visitation in 70 AD and for our time.

If dual fulfillments are shown to occur for one prophecy, such as this one, how can one make a blanket statement regarding all time prophecies that they cannot have dual fulfillment?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133620
05/20/11 09:32 PM
05/20/11 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Green Cochoa: But then, if you wish to reject Ezekiel's prophecy, we still have that of Jesus Himself.

Rosangela: As far as I know, Jesus didn't say when this would happen, either.


I agree. Indeed Jesus does not set a specific time for that event. As I see it He only generally spoke of a limiting range of time by which it should/surely would completely occur. As I had posted earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted By: NJK Project #133023
In regards to 70 A.D., Jesus never said that the destruction would/should take place in exactly 40 years after his death (which would actually be 71 A.D.) That is just what is commonly assumed. What Jesus said in Mark 13:30 was that the generation of people listening to him then, especially the ones (i.e., the knowledgeable adults) who were rejecting Him (cf. Luke 17:25) would not die before what He had said would be fulfilled. If that “generation” is considered to start from people aged 20, and life expectancy was ca. 70-80 years (Psa 90:10a), then Christ was here seeing ca. 81-91 A.D. as the limits.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133621
05/20/11 09:41 PM
05/20/11 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
But then, if you wish to reject Ezekiel's prophecy, we still have that of Jesus Himself.

As far as I know, Jesus didn't say when this would happen, either.


Jesus did, but in a manner which was typical for Him...that is, the style in which "he that hath an ear, let him hear" applies.

First, here is what Jesus said:
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Matthew
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to show him the buildings of the temple.
24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
...
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
...
24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Next, how long is a Biblical generation:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed. (Numbers 32:13)


Forty years is a generation. We find supporting texts for this same principle elsewhere as well.

Notice how in the following, it takes well nigh forty years for the men of war to die out. (One was not a "man" until the age of 20, Biblically.)
Originally Posted By: The Bible
And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, [was] thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them. (Deuteronomy 2:14)


Even David alludes to the "generation" which would follow Jesus' crucifixion.
Originally Posted By: The Bible

Psalms
22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.
22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
...
22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
22:28 For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations.
22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.


More "forties"...
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Forty years long was I grieved with [this] generation, and said, It [is] a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways. (Psalm 95:10)

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (Acts 13:36) {see also text below}

David [was] thirty years old when he began to reign, [and] he reigned forty years. (2 Samuel 5:4)


Summing it all up, we have the following:

1) A generation is 40 years.
2) Jesus spoke of the temple's destruction.
3) The disciples asked when it would happen.
4) Jesus said the current generation would not pass before it was fulfilled.

The disciples asked no more. They knew what was meant.

Mrs. White speaks of this as well.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Christ gave His disciples a sign of the ruin to come on Jerusalem, and He told them how to escape: "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." This warning was given to be heeded forty years after, at the destruction of Jerusalem. The Christians obeyed the warning, and not a Christian perished in the fall of the city. {DA 630.3}
"Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter; neither on the Sabbath day," Christ said. He who made the Sabbath did not abolish it, nailing it to His cross. The Sabbath was not rendered null and void by His death. Forty years after His crucifixion it was still to be held sacred. For forty years the disciples were to pray that their flight might not be on the Sabbath day. {DA 630.4}


And in the following, it is clear that Jesus' prophecy concerning Jerusalem was to have a dual application with the end-times. So parallel were the two fulfillments, that the prophetic details are intermingled in His words as recorded in those chapters (and Matthew, Mark, and Luke all recorded this).

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
As the attention of the rejected One was called to the magnificence of the temple, what must have been his thoughts! The view before him was indeed beautiful; but he said, sadly: I see it all, and the buildings are indeed wonderful. You point to these stones as apparently indestructible, but listen to my words. I tell you solemnly that the day will come when there shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down. Forty years after Christ uttered this prediction, his words were fulfilled to the letter. In the siege of Jerusalem it is stated that more than a million people perished, and that many were led into captivity. {RH, December 13, 1898 par. 12}
Christ's words had been spoken in the hearing of a large number of people; but when he was again alone, Peter, James, John, and Andrew came to him, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" {RH, December 13, 1898 par. 13}
In his answer, Jesus did not take up separately the destruction of Jerusalem and the last great day of his coming. He mingled the description of these two events. When he spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem, his words referred also to the final destruction that will take place when the Lord rises out of his place to punish the world for its iniquity. The entire chapter in which are recorded Christ's words regarding this, is a warning to all who shall live during the last scenes of this earth's history. {RH, December 13, 1898 par. 14}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Green Cochoa] #133628
05/20/11 11:01 PM
05/20/11 11:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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GC,

If a generation is 40 years, how is it that Joseph "saw Ephraim’s children to the third generation," if he lived only 110 years (Gen. 50:16)?

Quote:
Next, how long is a Biblical generation:

And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed. (Numbers 32:13)

It is not said that 40 years is the length of a generation. If they had been 20+ years old when they left Egypt, a generation would be 60+ years, not 40 years. The duration of a generation would be the expected lifespan of the people of that generation. Or the expected age at which people beget children. But 40 years is what?

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133629
05/20/11 11:26 PM
05/20/11 11:26 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Rosangela,

As with many words in English or in any language, the word "generation" in the Bible has more than one sense. For example, when generations are numbered, like in the Ten Commandments, they refer to simply the children. "Unto the third and fourth generation" has nothing to do with the number of years.

We do the same thing in English today. When we speak of "this generation," or even "the next generation," we refer to a period of time, or an age. Conversely, when we use the word "generation" to refer to children, such as a "four-generation family photo," we do not refer to an age, or to any particular passage of time, only to the family relationship of parents and children.

Clearly, the Bible has both of these same senses to the word "generation" as we have in modern English.

In the sense of an age, the Bible's definition for "generation" is a 40-year period. In the other sense, there is no way the Bible could force parents to become parents at no other age than that of forty! Of course, parents, like Joseph, who saw to the third and fourth generation of their children may not have needed to be 160 years old. smile

Regarding the children of Israel leaving Egypt and later entering Canaan, the "generation" which died in the wilderness included only those (and possibly specifically the men) who were 20 and above at the time of the Exodus. Clearly, if everyone of them exiting Egypt had died in the wilderness, there would have been few left to enter Canaan. Caleb and Joshua were the only two men who were above 20 at the Exodus who yet entered the Promised Land. Adding 20 and forty gives us 60, the maximum age for those who were 20 at the time of the Exodus. If one had been 60 already, I suppose they could have reached 100 theoretically, though this is unlikely to have occurred. Regardless, the "generation" comprised a period of time equalling 40 years, and had little or nothing to do with actual begetting of children while in the wilderness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Green Cochoa] #133631
05/21/11 12:23 AM
05/21/11 12:23 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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GC, a generation refers to all the people born more or less at the same point in time. This is the meaning in all the passages the word is used in the Bible.
David served his generation (all the people who were born more or less at the same point in time as he) for 40 years. It could be 20, or 30, or 50. This doesn't matter.
The generation who came out of Egypt was in the wilderness for 40 years. Note that the Bible doesn't say that they spent one generation in the wilderness, but that that generation spent 40 years in the wilderness. It's a big difference.
Now I'm going to sleep. Happy sabbath!

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133634
05/21/11 02:54 AM
05/21/11 02:54 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
GC, a generation refers to all the people born more or less at the same point in time. This is the meaning in all the passages the word is used in the Bible.
David served his generation (all the people who were born more or less at the same point in time as he) for 40 years. It could be 20, or 30, or 50. This doesn't matter.
The generation who came out of Egypt was in the wilderness for 40 years. Note that the Bible doesn't say that they spent one generation in the wilderness, but that that generation spent 40 years in the wilderness. It's a big difference.
Now I'm going to sleep. Happy sabbath!


I partly agree with that, Rosangela. The difference I would make is that the Bible sees a "generation," referring to a particular "group" of people, as you put it "born more or less at the same point in time," as comprising a period of forty years. Nowadays, a generation might be 20 or even approaching a mere decade! Here's an interesting list of them I found online:
Quote:
This is a listing of recent generations for individuals born in the United States. Dates are approximate, as recognized by demographers.
(ongoing) 2000/2001-Present - New Silent Generation or Generation Z
(20 years) 1980-2000 - Millennials or Generation Y
(14 years) 1965-1979 - Generation X
(18 years) 1946-1964 - Baby Boom
(20 years) 1925-1945 - Silent Generation
(24 years) 1900-1924 - G.I. Generation
The Population Reference Bureau provides an alternate listing and chronology of generational names in the United States.
(18 years) 1983-2001 - New Boomers
(17 years) 1965-1982 - Generation X
(18 years) 1946-1964 - Baby Boomers
(16 years) 1929-1945 - Lucky Few
(19 years) 1909-1928 - Good Warriors
(18 years) 1890-1908 - Hard Timers
(18 years) 1871-1889 - New Worlders

[Green portions are my own additions.]

The lowest here seems to have been 14 years, and the avg. ~18. But in the Bible, a generation was considered to be 40 years.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Green Cochoa] #133636
05/21/11 01:17 PM
05/21/11 01:17 PM
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GC, thank you for the lesson on the term "generation". Very interesting. Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." He named several things that would be fulfilled before the "generation" He was addressing passed.

For example, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" and "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

Is it safe to say these details of the prophecy were fulfilled by 70 AD? Is not the "great tribulation" yet future? And, didn't the dark day and blood moon and falling stars events happen in 1780 and 1833? Ellen wrote:

Quote:
Prophecy not only foretells the manner and object of Christ's coming, but presents tokens by which men are to know when it is near. Said Jesus: "There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars." Luke 21:25. "The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Mark 13:24-26. The revelator thus describes the first of the signs to precede the second advent: "There was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood." Revelation 6:12. {GC 304.1}

These signs were witnessed before the opening of the nineteenth century. In fulfillment of this prophecy there occurred, in the year 1755, the most terrible earthquake that has ever been recorded. Though commonly known as the earthquake of Lisbon, it extended to the greater part of Europe, Africa, and America. {GC 304.2}

Twenty-five years later appeared the next sign mentioned in the prophecy--the darkening of the sun and moon. What rendered this more striking was the fact that the time of its fulfillment had been definitely pointed out. In the Saviour's conversation with His disciples upon Olivet, after describing the long period of trial for the church,--the 1260 years of papal persecution, concerning which He had promised that the tribulation should be shortened,--He thus mentioned certain events to precede His coming, and fixed the time when the first of these should be witnessed: "In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light." Mark 13:24. The 1260 days, or years, terminated in 1798. A quarter of a century earlier, persecution had almost wholly ceased. Following this persecution, according to the words of Christ, the sun was to be darkened. On the 19th of May, 1780, this prophecy was fulfilled. {GC 306.1}

May 19, 1780, stands in history as "The Dark Day." Since the time of Moses no period of darkness of equal density, extent, and duration, has ever been recorded. The description of this event, as given by eyewitnesses, is but an echo of the words of the Lord, recorded by the prophet Joel, twenty-five hundred years previous to their fulfillment: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." Joel 2:31. {GC 308.1}

In 1833, two years after Miller began to present in public the evidences of Christ's soon coming, the last of the signs appeared which were promised by the Saviour as tokens of His second advent. Said Jesus: "The stars shall fall from heaven." Matthew 24:29. And John in the Revelation declared, as he beheld in vision the scenes that should herald the day of God: "The stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." Revelation 6:13. This prophecy received a striking and impressive fulfillment in the great meteoric shower of November 13, 1833. {GC 333.1}

Thus was displayed the last of those signs of His coming, concerning which Jesus bade His disciples: "When ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." Matthew 24:33. After these signs, John beheld, as the great event next impending, the heavens departing as a scroll, while the earth quaked, mountains and islands removed out of their places, and the wicked in terror sought to flee from the presence of the Son of man. Revelation 6:12-17. {GC 334.2}

Perhaps "this generation" refers to Christianity? That is, Christianity "shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled."

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Mountain Man] #133646
05/21/11 03:00 PM
05/21/11 03:00 PM
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Some of the strongest evidence that a prophecy can be literally fulfilled day-for-day after having been fulfilled on a year-for-day basis is what I've mentioned above - the two texts establishing the principle work in both direction - a day for a year in Ezekiel 4 and a year for a day in Numbers 14:34. If the texts establishing the rule work both ways how can we say the prophecies can only work in one way? If we say this aren't we reading our own views into the principle that scripture is trying to demonstrate.

The other principle I've mentioned is Miller's rule that a prohecy isn't fully fulfilled until all of it's particulars are met. That explains the obscure statements by Ellen White where she has no difficulty in placing the trumpets and seals in the future.

If we look carefully at the prophecies we put in the past we'll find that many of the particulars of them don't have a complete fulfillment. Take Revelation 11 for example. The measuring message given to John is for the disappointed Millerite believers to rise and proclaim the three angel's messages. They are to be God's two witnesses, proclaiming the judgment of the living. Now, Ellen White endorsed the view that Rev 11 applied to the French Revelution. But in another place she applied Revelation 11 to the future. (I think I may have posted that quote at the beginning of the thread. But, I'll start a new thread on Rev 11 and other passages: "Where in Scripture is the Judgment of the Living?")

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133652
05/21/11 04:41 PM
05/21/11 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If we look carefully at the prophecies we put in the past we'll find that many of the particulars of them don't have a complete fulfillment.

Did the clock stopped ticking? Seems to me events associated with prophecies beginning in the late 1700's are still in the process of fulfilling.

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