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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #133623
05/20/11 09:49 PM
05/20/11 09:49 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Can we reconcile the two always?

If we can't, then they don't come from the same source.

Then please, tell us how it's done! smile

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133624
05/20/11 09:51 PM
05/20/11 09:51 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
The Bible clearly permitted, even commanded in certain cases, polygamy.

Where does the Bible command polygamy?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133625
05/20/11 09:55 PM
05/20/11 09:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Then please, tell us how it's done!

God doesn't contradict Himself. If the Bible and the writings of EGW contradict themselves, they can't come both from Him.
What are the passages that you think contradict themselves?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #133626
05/20/11 10:35 PM
05/20/11 10:35 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Rosangela,

God commands, just after the Ten Commandments are given, in fact, that if a man marries a second wife, he must not diminish his care of nor "duty of marriage" with the first one. Furthermore, God commands that widows should not leave the family to marry outside of it, but must marry a brother of the deceased husband. The only time when this command could not be followed would be if the deceased had had no brother. Then she would be free to go elsewhere, presumably. But no specification is given for the woman who has three brothers-in-law, all of them married. She is simply commanded to marry one of them. This would cause one of them to have a second wife (or third, etc., if already having plural wives). Even before God gives this command, precedent for it had been set (see Genesis chapter 38).

How can these commands of God, the one which details how to treat multiple wives, the other which commands a potentially polygamous marriage, not be in contradiction to the words "God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance"? Furthermore, God goes on record, speaking through the prophet Nathan, that He gave David his wives (plural). How can this not be "sanctioning?"

I would appreciate any view which has the potential for erasing this apparent contradiction. I'm not a contradiction seeker, but have sufficient logic and reason to recognize one when I see one. This particular one seems almost inescapable. The two perspectives seem irreconcilable. One or the other appears incorrect, or shall we say, "inexact."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133630
05/21/11 12:09 AM
05/21/11 12:09 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
God commands, just after the Ten Commandments are given, in fact, that if a man marries a second wife, he must not diminish his care of nor "duty of marriage" with the first one.

So He is not commanding that a man marries a second wife, but merely making a provision to protect the wife in case a man marries again. So God is tolerating, not commanding, polygamy.

Quote:
Furthermore, God commands that widows should not leave the family to marry outside of it, but must marry a brother of the deceased husband.

The Bible doesn't give many details about the levirate marriage, but in the details it does give, there are no cases of a married man taking the wife of a deceased brother.
In the case of Tamar, her second husband was single and the third son of Judah, who had been promised to her, was also single.
In the book of Ruth, we verify that this precept wasn't limited to brothers, but was extended to the nearest of kin (who, in this case, was also single).
This may imply that, in case the brother was already married, the duty could be fulfilled by the nearest relative who wasn't married. Besides, the brother or relative could opt out of the levirate marriage.
The Reformation Study Bible says, "The limitation to brothers 'living together' may indicate that it applied to an unmarried brother."
So, we don't know much about this custom, but we can't affirm it was potentially polygamous.

Quote:
God goes on record, speaking through the prophet Nathan, that He gave David his wives (plural). How can this not be "sanctioning?"

Again, God cannot contradict Himself. In Deut. 17:17 God had said about the king, "He shall not multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away." Would God tell a king NOT to multiply wives for himself, and then give him multiple wives? Would this make any sense?
In the Bible many times God says that He did what He merely permitted or tolerated.
The evil spirit who tormented Saul was not "from God" (1Sam. 16:16). The Lord did not send lying spirits to entice Ahab (1 Ki 22:19-23). He permitted these things.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #133632
05/21/11 12:26 AM
05/21/11 12:26 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Rosangela,

If it were a sin to take a second wife, why would God say "if he take him another wife...?" If it were a sin, God should have said instead, "he must not take another wife within her lifetime..." or something to that effect. God would never have been "permissive" of sin, to give a law like that allowing sin.

This, in itself, proves that polygamy was not so heinous as some might see it.

(Going back to topic...)

Neither would God have allowed to enter His sacred Word such "permissions" as "Let him drink...and remember his misery no more." Consider that that statement actually begins with "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts." When I'm out and about in the city and run across an alms-seeker, I rarely, if ever, give him money for fear that he'll waste it all on beer. But, according to this commandment, I should not withhold from him, even if he were to spend it up on wine, isn't that what it seems to be saying?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133633
05/21/11 12:47 AM
05/21/11 12:47 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Regarding Tamar, do we know that Judah's sons were unmarried? (I'll grant that we know that for the last one, but what of the others?)

Regarding Boaz, do we know that he was single? Where do we find such a fact?

It is noteworthy that Mrs. White makes zero mention of Tamar in all of her published writings, and the word "Boaz" appears but thrice, with only one of those being an actual statement of Mrs. White referring to the Bible character (and it refers only to his courtesy).

Neither does Mrs. White make even one mention of any Biblical widow remarrying. (In a modern case, she claims to have no light from God on the subject of a widow's remarriage, either for or against.)

Silence. Is eloquence. Of what?

Back on the topic of wine, Ellen White is also entirely silent upon the text of Proverbs 31:6-7. She makes no use of this text, nor does she mention it at all. The nearest we come to a mention of the Deuteronomy passage, apparently, is the following statement, which omits any reference to the "strong drink" whatsoever, nor is that portion of the passage addressed. She entirely passes over verse 26, and does not reference it.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
To promote the assembling of the people for religious service, as well as to provide for the poor, a second tithe of all the increase was required. Concerning the first tithe, the Lord had declared, "I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel." Numbers 18:21. But in regard to the second He commanded, "Thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always." Deuteronomy 14:23, 29; 16:11-14. This tithe, or its equivalent in money, they were for two years to bring to the place where the sanctuary was established. After presenting a thank offering to God, and a specified portion to the priest, the offerers were to use the remainder for a religious feast, in which the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow should participate. Thus provision was made for the thank offerings and feasts at the yearly festivals, and the people were drawn to the society of the priests and Levites, that they might receive instruction and encouragement in the service of God. {PP 530.1}
Every third year, however, this second tithe was to be used at home, in entertaining the Levite and the poor, as Moses said, "That they may eat within thy gates, and be filled." Deuteronomy 26:12. This tithe would provide a fund for the uses of charity and hospitality. {PP 530.2}


Meanwhile, there are hundreds of times where Mrs. White used the term "strong drink." She clearly viewed it as alcoholic. Here is one such statement which illustrates this.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
You have perhaps seen a picture of the stomach of one who is addicted to strong drink. A similar condition is produced under the irritating influence of fiery spices. With the stomach in such a state, there is a craving for something more to meet the demands of the appetite, something stronger, and still stronger. Next you find your sons out on the street learning to smoke. It is a grievous lesson; it makes them deathly sick. Yet they press the matter through with a perseverance that would be praiseworthy in a better cause. Tobacco weakens the brain, and paralyzes its fine sensibilities. Its use excites a thirst for strong drink, and in very many cases lays the foundation for the liquor habit. {CTBH 17.3}


Mrs. White speaks of the "strong drink" in reference to the angel's words to Samson's parents, but does not acknowledge the use of this term in any portion of the Bible where strong drink is less-conservatively portrayed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133641
05/21/11 02:19 PM
05/21/11 02:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, do you agree with JAK that God permitted "drunkenness" on special occasions?

And, do you agree with him that Jesus occasionally experienced "drunkenness"?

Also, concerning the two texts which appear to recommend "wine" and "strong drink" in specific instances, do you think God is recommending "drunkenness"?

Finally, what do you make of all passages in the Bible and the SOP which explicitly prohibit "wine" and "strong drink" and "drunkenness"? Do they contradict the other two passages you posted?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133651
05/21/11 04:40 PM
05/21/11 04:40 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
If it were a sin to take a second wife, why would God say "if he take him another wife...?" If it were a sin, God should have said instead, "he must not take another wife within her lifetime..." or something to that effect. God would never have been "permissive" of sin, to give a law like that allowing sin.

This, in itself, proves that polygamy was not so heinous as some might see it.

Let me rewrite what you said:
If it were a sin to divorce, why would God say, "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce..." (Dt 24:1)? If it were a sin, God should have said instead, "he must not divorce his wife..." or something to that effect. God would never have been "permissive" of sin, to give a law like that allowing sin.
This, in itself, proves that divorce was not so heinous as some might see it.

Is that your logic? But if divorce is not heinous, adultery is not heinous.
"But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery."

The same is true about slavery. But I won't rewrite it again. I think you understood my point.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #133662
05/21/11 08:32 PM
05/21/11 08:32 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, do you agree with JAK that God permitted "drunkenness" on special occasions?

And, do you agree with him that Jesus occasionally experienced "drunkenness"?

Also, concerning the two texts which appear to recommend "wine" and "strong drink" in specific instances, do you think God is recommending "drunkenness"?

Finally, what do you make of all passages in the Bible and the SOP which explicitly prohibit "wine" and "strong drink" and "drunkenness"? Do they contradict the other two passages you posted?

Mike,

I think JAK and I may be coming from different perspectives on this. I would not deliberately choose to imply that God permitted drunkenness "on special occasions." I think that sort of perspective is flawed on multiple counts, not least of which is that of "consistency." If it were ok on one occasion, it should be just as acceptable on the next, unless express conditions were outlined in advance (such as the recipe which God instructed for the anointing ointment that was not to be ever made again).

To my mind, we need to be looking for a broader picture here, as opposed to one involving any "special circumstances" or "exceptions."

I also do not believe Jesus experienced drunkenness. I believe that accusation of Him was false. We are told that Jesus was very careful when eating with others not to eat everything presented, but only those foods which would nourish Him, and I think this means in part that He kept it simple. I find that I feel much better on Sabbath afternoons when I have done likewise--I'll eat only from two or three dishes, and when I go back for seconds, I get the same foods (or similar). I avoid foods that are too complex. Then I don't get any headache, such as Ellen White speaks of people getting after their Sabbath meals. (I used to get headaches before I learned my lesson on this.)

If Jesus would have been so careful as this about His food, I am certain He would have taken some consideration for what He drank. That said, there was food a thousand times better in Heaven, which He left behind. He came to us, eating what we ate (close to garbage, sometimes, by comparison!), in order to teach us and take our debt of sin upon Himself. We know He ate fish. Even after His resurrection. I do not believe Jesus was addicted to meat as many are today. He ate it not for Himself, but for us. He ate it in acceptance of our humble conditions and hospitality. And fish is only part of what He may have eaten that we might wonder about. They didn't have refrigerators back then. Perhaps He ate some cheese, and Ellen White says it was never fit for human consumption. Perhaps He did drink some wine that was preserved in its own vinegar or alcohol. I cannot prove it one way or another. If He did drink it, however, it would have been for others, and not for Himself. He would have had no taste for it.

Nevertheless, the accusation against Him for drunkenness was tantamount to the accusations He faces for being a "bastard." They were illegitimate claims, both of them. Jesus had a Heavenly Father which the people of His day may not have recognized as a "legitimate" father.

In short, while I cannot be certain as to all of what Jesus ate or drank, I am sure of His motives and His habits of keeping Himself as pure as possible. Physically, life on this earth was a challenge. Even the very best of conditions here would have tended toward corruption of His health. Yet, His motives were pure, and it was no sin for Him to eat the common fare of the day with His family and friends. Did that common fare include some spice, pickles, cheese, vinegar or wine? We simply do not know, and I cannot make any judgment on these things one way or the other.

I'll have to address your other questions in another post.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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