Tom, it was God who first brought up Job when Satan showed up at the meeting of the sons of God. It was God who outlined, both times, what Satan could not do to Job. Yes, God aaparently left it up to Satan to decide exactly what to do, but, nevertheless, God owned responsibility for what happened to Job. And, Job charged God with it, and it wasn't considred a foolish or sinful charge. So, according to both God and Job, what happened to Job was God's will.

Job
1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.
2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

So, was it God's will that Satan kill Job's family and flocks? Yes, apparently so. Instead of doubting the obvious, I am more interested in learning WHY it was God's will. Which takes me to the life and death of Jesus. Was it God's will that Jesus live and die for us? Absolutely! No question about it. From this I learn that God uses death to teach us lessons about life. There are plenty of examples, in the Bible, of people facing death unto the honor of glory of God. Is death God's will? Yes, sometimes it is. He doesn't always use death, though. Sometimes He uses blindness.

John
9:1 And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Thank you Mike for some nice thoughts, but you quickly go back to

quote:

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So, was it God's will that Satan kill Job's family and flocks? Yes, apparently so. Instead of doubting the obvious, I am more interested in learning WHY it was God's will.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

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Mike, you talk out of two sides of your mouth like the two sides of your coin; wrath & love.

My point about your two quotes above is: that on the one side you are telling that it is God’s wrath and righteousness that kills, destroys, and murders etc.; on the other hand you are quoting scripture that they who do such things cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Now either God is unlike his kingdom, or the God you are talking about is not the one that is to come. So we must be saved from the God that was to the God that will be, and in the meantime he wants us to be it before he is it.

Mike: Instead of doubting the obvious, I am more interested in learning WHY it was God's will.

John: What is it that is not being doubted here? Could it be that you are taking Satan’s perspective as obviously God's, and then wanting to know why it is God’s will?

Are you really interested in learning what is God’s will?

There is inherent a lack of reality to the meaning of your comments, and it tends to reflect back to your picture of God’s ‘preprogram’ for everything (another way of saying “rerun”; you cannot rerun what has not previously been programmed), and therefore everything is as planned, hence his will; hence no love, no faith, no sin, no reality, etc.

If you were willing to consider the possibility of God not being like that, and that maybe he is what he wants us to be, we might get somewhere.

Okay, John, for the sake of discussing the "process of conversion", I'll assume your view of the wrath of God is correct, and that mine is wrong. I'll assume the same regarding the foreknowledge of God. Where does that leave us? What do you think? Are we born again with or without our defective traits of character?

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

SC 33
Every act of transgression, every neglect or rejection of the grace of Christ, is reacting upon yourself; it is hardening the heart, depraving the will, benumbing the understanding, and not only making you less inclined to yield, but less capable of yielding, to the tender pleading of God's Holy Spirit. {SC 33.2}

SC 34
Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}

Is perceiving God to be entirely different that He actually is a "defective trait of character?"

According to the Bible or the SOP - What is a defective trait of character? How do we end up with one?

PS - Do Job foolishly charge God with being responsible for what happened to him and his family?

Thank you Mountain Man for your willingness to consider a different view; I see it has already yielded quotes that are meaningful. I hope you will be willing to pursue that thought for a while.

Where does that leave us?

It leaves us in a very clear and simple place. We are by fallen nature, all those things that we need to be saved from. He is all that we need to be saved to.

Therefore:
doubt is replaced with faith;
error with truth;
malice with goodwill;
selfishness with love;
wrath with mercy;
accusation with forgiveness;
lust with joy;
revenge with longsuffering;
pride with meekness;
fear with peace;
Covetousness with grace

There is nothing in God that we need to be saved from, and there is nothing in us that we need to save.

Mike: What do you think? Are we born again with or without our defective traits of character?

John: This question is contrary to the spirit of grace of being born again.

It is akin to the question or suggestion of the serpent to Eve that God did not make them complete.

How would you ever find out? Let us see, what are defective traits of character? Doubt, malice, selfishness, pride, lust, covetousness, fearfulness, etc. How will you find out whether you do not have these? You see you are at that point brought to think like Satan thought about Job.

God does not look like that and neither must we. We must not reject or neglect the grace of God in order to look to see if there are defects. Any self-assessment is bound to be of doubt, produce accusation and banish the grace of God. Satan is a master of deception and he will use the law of God for that very purpose; the purpose of self-assessment. In that way the law is not of grace. Satan would like to hold us in accusation, and condemnation. But God’s work is to justify.

Who is he that condemns, it is God that justifies. He is the one that saves us, except we accept his grace, accept his spirit in our soul, and move, think, and have our being in him; we will be painfully aware of our gracelessness. So our life is hid with Christ in God, and we in him. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

What are the traits of character of the born again? We see faithfulness, truth, goodwill, love, mercy forgiveness, joy, peace, meekness, longsuffering, patience… . Now where these abound that is grace.

You see faith does not look at self; it looks at God. Since its eyes are on God, God is what faith sees. Once we have learned to rest our faith in God then we look through his eyes. Faith sees what God is doing and when he has accomplished it and thus it moves from Glory to Glory.

So what am I trying to convey.

You see the real truth of the matter is to see and have “God’s righteousness apart from the law” by the faith of Jesus.

Do you understand what that is?

John, well said. I take it from what you posted that we are born again with the fruits of the Spirit, that we are born again without the fruits of the flesh. Of course, I agree. But, what about self examination? What about post-conversion repentance?

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

1SM 89
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor. 13:5). Closely criticize the temper, the disposition, the thoughts, words, inclinations, purposes, and deeds. How can we ask intelligently for the things we need unless we prove by the Scriptures the condition of our spiritual health? {1SM 89.1}

HP 131
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). Some conscientious souls, on reading this, immediately begin to criticize their every feeling and emotion. But this is not correct self-examination. It is not the petty feelings and emotions that are to be examined. The life, the character, is to be measured by the only standard of character, God's holy law. The fruit testifies to the character of the tree. Our works, not our feelings, bear witness of us. {HP 131.2}

Tom, if, as you say, Job ignorantly held God accountable for what happened to him, then was he guilty of sin? a sin of ignorance? Was he guilty of a defective trait of character? Or, should we imitate his example?

ML 328
From the depths of discouragement and despondency Job rose to the heights of implicit trust in the mercy and the saving power of God. Triumphantly he declared: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." {ML 328.5}

1SM 117, 118
The Lord permits circumstances to come that call for the exercise of the passive graces, which increase in purity and efficiency as we endeavor to give back to the Lord His own in tithes and offerings... It is by suffering that our virtues are tested, and our faith tried. It is in the day of trouble that we feel the preciousness of Jesus. You will be given opportunity to say, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15). Oh, it is so precious to think that opportunities are afforded us to confess our faith in the face of danger, and amid sorrow, sickness, pain, and death. {1SM 117.4}

TDG 348
You feel that had it not been for this great loss you would be a comparatively happy man. But it may be that the very loss of your child here will be to you, and not to you only but to many in Switzerland, for the saving of souls. Light will come out of this darkness which to you at times seems incomprehensible. "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). Let this be the language of your heart. {TDG 348.2}

LS 252
When I stood by my first-born, and closed his eyes in death, I could say, "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." And I felt then that I had a comforter in Jesus. And when my latest born was torn from my arms, and I could no longer see its little head upon the pillow by my side, then I could say, "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." {LS 252.4}