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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13391
04/30/05 07:34 PM
04/30/05 07:34 PM
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OP
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OHC 48
Christ's overcoming and obedience is that of a true human being. In our conclusions, we make many mistakes because of our erroneous views of the human nature of our Lord. When we give to His human nature a power that it is not possible for man to have in his conflicts with Satan, we destroy the completeness of His humanity. His imputed grace and power He gives to all who receive Him by faith. {OHC 48.2}
The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13392
04/30/05 07:55 PM
04/30/05 07:55 PM
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quote:
Tom, as I have posted before, you have clearly stated one aspect of the wrath of God.
That "aspect" I have presented is that God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their choice. This is the only aspect I'm aware of. I presented many texts which the principle. Here's one:
quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)
This explains what God's wrath is. It is His withdrawal from the sinner. This is equated with the destruction of the wicked, which is stated here, and many other places to be due to this principle.
What's the other aspect of God's wrath?
Let's follow up on this a bit. Let's say that God had not revealed to us what was going on behind the curtain, so to speak, in Job. We would have thought, as Job's friend's did, that it was God who was doing these things to him. This was Satan's argument:
quote:
11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. (Job 1:11)
See what Satan is doing here? It was he, not God, who "touched" Job, yet Satan presents it as God doing it. This is what he has always done. He leads people to reject God, and His protection, and then brings destruction, and then blames what he has done as God doing it. This principle is presented also in the GC section quoted above:
quote:
Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the
destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.
This is not an aspect of God's wrath, but *the* aspect of God's wrath. Once we understand this principle, everything else falls into place.
It goes like this:
1)Satan wants to separate us from God.
2)He does this by misreprenting God's character, which he does by:
a)Getting man to view God in a false light.
b)By way of this false view of God, lead man to distrust God, and separate himself from God.
c)Once God has been rejected, he undertakes his destructive work.
d)He blames what he has done upon God, to obtain new victims, repeating the whole cycle.
Satan's plan depends on our believing his lies about God's character.
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13393
04/30/05 11:20 PM
04/30/05 11:20 PM
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OP
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quote:
I agree with you. But, exactly how those consequences have played out has varied throughout the history of God's wrath. How it will play out in the end is something, I suspect, we will never agree on. In time we will both know the truth.
As I have already said, when sinners pass the limits of God's forbearance - there is hell to pay. Just exactly what happens when God withdraws His protection is a matter that varies greatly.
GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}
You mentioned Job, but you failed to emphasize the fact that God was in control, not Satan. The devil was merely following God's orders, which makes Him more culpable. What happened was according to God’s plan for Job. Otherwise, God would have told Satan to take a hike. He wouldn’t have given Satan permission to test Job’s allegiance and faithfulness. The same thing applies to life and death of Jesus. That is, it was according to God’s plan and desire - all the pain, agony and suffering.
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13394
04/30/05 11:41 PM
04/30/05 11:41 PM
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Mike: As I have already said, when sinners pass the limits of God's forbearance - there is hell to pay. Just exactly what happens when God withdraws His protection is a matter that varies greatly. Tom: This is true. As pointed out in the list of SOP quotes, when people reject God and He gives them over to Satan, sometimes Satan will make them prosper while other times he makes them suffer. No matter what he does, he will do things in a way to try to make God look bad. How he will try to make God look bad will vary. Mike: You mentioned Job, but you failed to emphasize the fact that God was in control, not Satan. Tom: God gave the control over to Satan. That's why Job suffered. It was not God's will that Job suffer, that his children die and so forth, but Satan's. If you misuderstand this, you've missed the whole point of the book. Mike: The devil was merely following God's orders, which makes Him more culpable. Tom: If it were true that Satan were following God's orders, that would indeed make God more culpable. It's hard for me to imagine why anyone would have such negative thoughts about God, and even more confusing as to why anyone would want to server such a God. Mike: What happened was according to God’s plan for Job. Otherwise, God would have told Satan to take a hike. He wouldn’t have given Satan permission to test Job’s allegiance and faithfulness. The same thing applies to life and death of Jesus. That is, it was according to God’s plan and desire - all the pain, agony and suffering. Tom: What is it that has caused you to have such a negative view of God? God has never desired that any of His children know anything of the sin, misery and pain that sin has brought. He wants nothing but good for His creatures. quote:
Not a sigh is breathed, not a pain felt, not a grief pierces the soul, but the throb vibrates to the Father's heart.The Bible shows us God in His high and holy place, not in a state of inactivity, not in silence and solitude, but surrounded by ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of holy intelligences, all waiting to do His will. Through channels which we cannot discern He is in active communication with every part of His dominion. But it is in this speck of a world, in the souls that He gave His only-begotten Son to save, that His interest and the interest of all heaven is centered. God is bending from His throne to hear the cry of the oppressed. To every sincere prayer He answers, "Here am I." He uplifts the distressed and downtrodden. In all our afflictions He is afflicted. (DA 356)
quote:
In the Garden of Eden was the "tree of knowledge of good and evil. . . . And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat." Genesis 2:9-17. [u]It was the will of God that Adam and Eve should not know evil.[/u] The knowledge of good had been freely given them; but the knowledge of evil,--of sin and its results, of wearing toil, of anxious care, of disappointment and grief, of pain and death,--this was in love withheld. (Ed 23)
It was Satan's will that Adam and Eve should know sin, misery, pain and death -- not God's!
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13395
05/01/05 12:47 AM
05/01/05 12:47 AM
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Mike, Why do you not open up a topic on "the destruction of the wicked" or "God's wrath"
I do not understand what it has here to do with "what needs to be understood in the process of conversion". Except it is that the concept that you are bringing forth, is that of the unconverted mind that sees God as an enemy; while the converted mind sees his Love.
Is that what you are contending?
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13396
05/01/05 12:53 AM
05/01/05 12:53 AM
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Yes, of course, Tom. But what God preferred is not what happened. Mankind sinned. Now, the rules are different. God uses our experiential knowledge of evil to grow us as Christians. Are you suggesting that Satan isn't working within the constraints of God? Are you saying that Satan has full control? that he is free to do as he pleases? that God has no say so? The fact God regulated how Satan troubled Job is good news, not a sad commentary.
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13397
05/01/05 12:55 AM
05/01/05 12:55 AM
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Good idea, John. What do you make of the parts of this thread that speak to the process of conversion?
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13398
05/01/05 02:21 AM
05/01/05 02:21 AM
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Well, in view of things so far here, for starters "conversion" certainly means a change. It means a change in the one being converted.
Since we are dealing with spiritual change, we realize that there has to be a change in the mind which is at enmity with God, to a mind which is in harmony with God.
Therefore:
doubt needs to replaced with faith;
error with truth;
malice with goodwill;
selfishness with love;
wrath with mercy;
accusation with forgiveness;
lust with joy;
revenge with longsuffering;
pride with meekness;
fear with peace;
...
I think these things should ring a bell.
Now if these are just ideas or ideals for an ideal world, I do not know how much practice we can have here. But if it is God's way of dealing with and the overthrow of sin, then we have something from God that enables us to live above sin in this sinful world, and we are at the same time reconciled with God in our hearts and minds, having seen that his spirit in us, has such a righteousness as we never dreamt before.
Now I do not know that God wants us to be one thing while he is another thing. But that the purpose of conversion, salvation or reconcilliation is that we would be reconciled to that which he is.
This is what I have found in him.
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13399
05/02/05 02:38 AM
05/02/05 02:38 AM
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I like your list, John. Sister White made a similar list in the following quotes:
DA 173
While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God. {DA 173.1}
6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again (RH April 12, 1892). {6BC 1101.1}
And, of course, the apostle Paul made a list, too, in the following passage:
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139.
#13400
05/01/05 03:16 PM
05/01/05 03:16 PM
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Mike: The devil was merely following God's orders, which makes Him more culpable.
Tom: If what you mean by this remark is that Satan can only do what God permits him to do, your communication skills need a great deal of improvement. To "follow God's orders" implies that Satan was carrying out God's will. It is this idea I was taking exception to. So, by way of clarification, by "following God's orders" to you mean:
A) Doing what God has commanded (i.e. carrying out God's will; i.e. it was God's will that Job be tormented and his children killed)
B) Satan could only do what God permitted him to do.
If what you mean is B), there was no point in your bringing this up, as no one disputes this and it was not germain to the discussion.
Regarding the questions you asked me, there was nothing unclear in anything I wrote, and you already know the answers to the questions you asked me, which were rhetorical. If you have a legimate question about something I wrote of which you are truly unsure as to my meaning, please re-ask the question, and I will be happy to answer it.
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