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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #134359
06/10/11 03:07 PM
06/10/11 03:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
What Ellen White says is that Christ restored the entire race of men to favor with God. This would seem to imply that a person must do something to lose this favor. . . In the Desire of Ages quote she brings out that a person must do something to be lost, which is to resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit. . . Therefore to be lost, one must resist the drawing of the love of God shining from the cross.

On the cross, Jesus made pardon and salvation possible and available to anyone and everyone willing to comply with the conditions. Before the conditions are met, however, everyone is in a lost state because "all have sinned" and the "wages of sin is death". Our default state is sin and guilt and condemnation. Not because A&E sinned, but because "all have sinned". Yes, the Godhead, and all heaven, work earnestly to motivate and influence everyone to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior, and it requires effort on the part of sinners to resist and reject such labor of love. But it also requires effort, way more effort, to resist and reject Satan and sinful flesh and to embrace Jesus. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
To resist Satan's desires is no easy task. It demands a firm hold of the divine nature from beginning to end, or it cannot be done. (1SM 342)

But it is not an easy matter to overcome hereditary and cultivated ten-dencies to wrong. Self is masterful, and strives for the victory. (3SM 289)

In the present state of society it is no easy task for parents to restrain their children and instruct them according to the Bible rule of right. {AH 529.2}

God asks us to sink self in Christ. For the natural man this is not easy. {OFC 264.5}

It is harder to reach the hearts of men today than it was twenty years ago. The most convincing arguments may be presented, and yet sinners seem as far from salvation as ever. {Ev 178.4}

It is not easy to regain the reins of self-government, when they are once surrendered to the baser passions. {HR, June 1, 1878 par. 13}

They may once have known the love of Christ, but they have not kept faith in exercise, and it is harder to reach their hearts than it is to move those who have never been converted. They do not so readily yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit, for they have stifled conviction, and have not been obedient hearers of the word. {GW92 439.1}

If you once allow Satan to tamper with your mind, you will find that it is not easy to break away from him. {RH, July 20, 1905 par. 12}

After they have become dyed in the wool, it is not easy to transform such men. {PH002 19.1}

They will decide to take the course of the righteous, although it is more difficult to pursue, more painful to follow, than the way of their own heart. {TMK 251.2}

It is not easy to meet and withstand foes who wear the same dress as do the soldiers of Christ. {PH096 7.1}

It is not easy for us to remember that the great fountain is from God. {1MR 240.2}

When strong-minded men once set their will against God's will, it is not easy for them to admit that they have erred in judgment. It is very difficult for such men to come fully into the light by honestly confessing their sins; for Satan has great power over the minds of many to whom God has granted evidence sufficient to encourage faith and inspire confidence. Many will not be convinced, because they are not inclined to confess. To resist and reject even one ray of light from heaven because of pride and stubbornness of heart, makes it easier to refuse light the second time. Thus men form the habit of rejecting light. {7MR 262.1}

By a momentary act of will you may place yourself in the power of Satan, but it will require more than a momentary act of will to break his fetters and reach for a higher, holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun, but its accomplishment will require toil, time, and perseverance, patience, and sacrifice. (ML 322)

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Tom] #134362
06/10/11 06:58 PM
06/10/11 06:58 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Daryl:A person stated in our Sabbath School Class discussion this morning that all are born saved and all choose to be lost.

This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.

Do you agree or disagree with the above?

R:Tom claims this was Jones and Waggoner's position, if I'm not mistaken, but I couldn't find evidence for this.
Jack Sequeira and other modern SDA exponents hold this position.

I've never claimed that Jones and Waggoner taught that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.

Also it's not true that Sequeira holds this position.

By "other modern SDA exponents," who did you have in mind?

I was referring to the first statement: that all are born saved and all choose to be lost - isn't this what universal legal justification (ULJ) teaches? The second statement is a corollary of the first one, that is, if all are born saved, they couldn't be lost until they are mature enough to make this decision.
Jack Sequeira and The 1888 Study Committee (mainly Wieland and Short) advocate ULJ.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Rosangela] #134387
06/11/11 02:39 PM
06/11/11 02:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
If all are born saved, then all begin as A&E began. But such a sinless state would be extremely short lived. Infants react and respond to negative stimuli in sinful ways. True, they are ignorant and, therefore, innocent ans as such God does not hold them accountable. Nevertheless, He does hold Jesus accountable. It is the life and death of Jesus that gives God the legal right to count people who sin ignorantly innocent. Sins of ignorance are, nonetheless, sins and require the atoning blood of Jesus.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #134392
06/11/11 04:12 PM
06/11/11 04:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Quote:
The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel anyone to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer. (PP 421)

Some people seem to think "Satan attacks us at our weak points" implies guilt and condemnation, that is, having "weak points" is a sin for which God counts us guilty and condemned. However, having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not a sin. Yes, acting them out is a sin. But abiding in Jesus and reining them in, subjecting them to the control of a sanctified will and mind, results in victory - not corruption or contamination.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #134410
06/11/11 10:35 PM
06/11/11 10:35 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
If all are born saved, then all begin as A&E began. But such a sinless state would be extremely short lived. Infants react and respond to negative stimuli in sinful ways. True, they are ignorant and, therefore, innocent ans as such God does not hold them accountable. Nevertheless, He does hold Jesus accountable. It is the life and death of Jesus that gives God the legal right to count people who sin ignorantly innocent. Sins of ignorance are, nonetheless, sins and require the atoning blood of Jesus.

According to this view (Universal Legal Justification), the reason why people are born saved is because of the blood of Jesus. If they remain saved until they consciously choose to be lost, this means they remain saved until the age of accountability (which, Mike, can't be when they are just some months old, because they are sinning ignorantly).

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #134411
06/11/11 10:41 PM
06/11/11 10:41 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Some people seem to think "Satan attacks us at our weak points" implies guilt and condemnation, that is, having "weak points" is a sin for which God counts us guilty and condemned. However, having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not a sin. Yes, acting them out is a sin. But abiding in Jesus and reining them in, subjecting them to the control of a sanctified will and mind, results in victory - not corruption or contamination.

There are sinful weak points and non-sinful weak points. A sinful weak point is a defect of character.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Rosangela] #134455
06/13/11 02:07 PM
06/13/11 02:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
If all are born saved, then all begin as A&E began. But such a sinless state would be extremely short lived. Infants react and respond to negative stimuli in sinful ways. True, they are ignorant and, therefore, innocent ans as such God does not hold them accountable. Nevertheless, He does hold Jesus accountable. It is the life and death of Jesus that gives God the legal right to count people who sin ignorantly innocent. Sins of ignorance are, nonetheless, sins and require the atoning blood of Jesus.

According to this view (Universal Legal Justification), the reason why people are born saved is because of the blood of Jesus. If they remain saved until they consciously choose to be lost, this means they remain saved until the age of accountability (which, Mike, can't be when they are just some months old, because they are sinning ignorantly).

I definitely do not subscribe to Universal Justification. Jesus will determine, based on sound criteria and judgment, who is lost and saved. In cases involving infants, we can trust Jesus to judge righteously. Such judgments will be made on a case-by-case basis. There is no one-size-fits-all.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Rosangela] #134456
06/13/11 02:11 PM
06/13/11 02:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Some people seem to think "Satan attacks us at our weak points" implies guilt and condemnation, that is, having "weak points" is a sin for which God counts us guilty and condemned. However, having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not a sin. Yes, acting them out is a sin. But abiding in Jesus and reining them in, subjecting them to the control of a sanctified will and mind, results in victory - not corruption or contamination.

There are sinful weak points and non-sinful weak points. A sinful weak point is a defect of character.

Yes, defective traits of character, whether inherited or cultivated, are sinful weaknesses, imperfections. However, as I mentioned above, having them is not the same thing as acting them out. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, merely having them does not incur guilt or condemnation.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #134475
06/14/11 01:13 AM
06/14/11 01:13 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
What about the statement that "imperfection of character is sin"?

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: kland] #134476
06/14/11 01:21 AM
06/14/11 01:21 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.
Accountability? Age of 18, 21, or defined by whom? Guess I'm saying I could not agree with that statement as it has a variable definition according to who you speak to. Or what country or state you are in.

When I was growing up in the "old country," one method to determine accountability is to see if you can reach over your head and touch your ear on the other side of your head without tilting your head. Tough luck for people with short arms!


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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