The statements you presented say only positive things about Job. They seem to agree with the point I was making, so I'm missing your point.

No, Tom, those quotes totally contradict what you said about Job. You said Job held God accountable for what happened to his children and flocks because he was ignorant of the existence and machinations of Satan. In contrast to this opinion, Sister White also praised God for the death of her children, and she encouraged another to do the same. God takes credit for what He causes Himself and for what He allows others to do for Him.

I don't think that's what I said. I think what I said is that one should not be harsh in judging Job because he didn't know about Satan. I'm just about certain that's what I said, as that's what I think.

You seem to have an inordinately difficult time in expressing what I think. Why don't you do what I've suggested a number of times, and simply quote what I say? That would obviate the difficulty you have in paraphrasing my thoughts.

At any rate, if I said what you say I did, please show me where I said that. I don't think I've said anything along the lines of what you said I did.

Here's a short history leading up to my last post:

quote:

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Tom - Given that Job did not know of Satan's existence, I don't think we should judge Job harshly. Given what Job knew, how else could he have thought?

Mike - Tom, if, as you say, Job ignorantly held God accountable for what happened to him, then was he guilty of sin? a sin of ignorance? Was he guilty of a defective trait of character? Or, should we imitate his example? [I quoted several SOP passages]

Tom - The statements you presented say only positive things about Job. They seem to agree with the point I was making, so I'm missing your point.

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Tom, please help me translate this exchange of ideas. Thank you.

Well I'm missing yours too, so I guess we're even.

I think your point is that Job held God responsible for what was happening, and that's a good thing. Is that it? We should hold God accountable for the evil that happens in the world? Or am I misunderstanding you?

You seem to think I said something negative against Job, at least that how it appeared to me. I'm not aware that I said anything against Job.

Job obviously was in error in thinking that God was harming him, but since he didn't know of Satan's existence, what else could he have thought? His attitude, "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" was admirable, and the best he could have, given what he knew.

This seems to be getting quite of the subject of the thread, the process of salvation. If you want to open a thread regarding what our attitude should be when bad things happen to us, that might be an interesting thing to pursue.

Or if you want to open one regarding whether we should hold God responsible for the evil in the world, that would OK too.

Responsible? Accountable? Yes! God gets the credit for causing or permitting anything and everything that happens on earth to humans. He is in control, not sin, not self, not Satan. It is our duty and privilege to praise and thank God "in" and "for" everyhting that happens - the good, the bad, and the ugly. Ellen White, who knew all about Satan, repeated the words of Job when her children died untimely deaths. She gave God the credit, not Satan. Was she in error, too?

Ephesians
5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians
5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Okay, getting back to the "process of conversion", again. According to the Steps to Christ quotes posted below Jesus reveals all of our defects of character with one ray of the glory of God, one ray of His purity. Of course, this happens during the process of conversion, before we experience the miracle of rebirth.

This insight, therefore, makes it clear that there are no hidden flaws, no secret sins, that escape God's notice, nothing that Jesus doesn't reveal to us. Everything is exposed. But, and more importantly, everything is exposed and revealed in the context of the cross. Any defect we refuse to confess and forsake, at this critical point in the process of conversion, stalls the process and we remain unconverted.

But if we did not resist the love of God, if we cooperate with the agencies of heaven, if we confess and forsake all of the defects revealed to us during the process of conversion, then, and only then, do we experience the initial miracle of rebirth. We are born again dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. We are new creatures in Christ. God implants within us the mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the fruits and righteous attributes of God's character. Not one is missing.

Now, as newborn babes in Christ, we must continue to cooperate with the Holy Spirit, moment by moment, and, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit - from glory to glory, from faith to faith. Connected to Christ, abiding in Him, we do not and cannot commit a sin according to our former defects and imperfections. To sin, we must take our eyes off Jesus, disconnect from Him, stop abiding in Him, cease walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - and then all we can do is sin. But repentance restores the relationship our sin severed.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

SC 33
Every act of transgression, every neglect or rejection of the grace of Christ, is reacting upon yourself; it is hardening the heart, depraving the will, benumbing the understanding, and not only making you less inclined to yield, but less capable of yielding, to the tender pleading of God's Holy Spirit. {SC 33.2}

SC 34
Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}

Is it a sin to view God's character in a false light, and to speak of it in a false way?

Tom, of course it wasn't God's will for mankind to sin and suffer the consequences. By the way, the wages of sin is death, instant death, not a long life of pain and suffering. The plan of salvation postponed the real wages of sin. What we experience now when we sin isn't anything like the wages of sin. God overruled the wages of sin when Jesus became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The long, lingering death we die, which basically begins the moment we are born of the flesh, is not the wages of sin.

Since instant and immediate death (i.e., the second and eternal death) is the wages of sin, and not disease, destruction, and temporal death, what, then, is the origin and source of the terrible things that happen to us when we sin, or as we live in a sinful world? Remember, God didn’t promise Adam and Eve a long, lingering, slow, painful, temporal death when He warned them not to eat the forbidden fruit. He promised them immediate death.

In other words, God introduced a situation where, instead of an immediate eternal death, mankind now lives a slow death, full of pain and sadness and suffering, with mixed moments of joy and happiness, but eventually ending in a temporal death - and the promise of a resurrection. So, who made it all possible? Is a life of suffering part of the plan?