Elle, have you had a chance to determine what your own definition of free will means to you? I was reminded of this by those who refused to define what "drunk" means while at the same time saying it was wrong.

Well I did answer you in post #132929 which I said the following : So to define freewill from that statement by stating the adverse would be :

"freewill is having the ability to generate our own wise thoughts and derive proper choices from it, and therefore can decide our direction based on an intelligent choice."

Also in post #132930 I have stated quotes of many SDAs their definition of freewill in regards to our salvation which all believed that an individual needs to choose Jesus or die. That's the freewill we all have according to the standard christian understanding which I used to believe in all the above also.

These is what I believe freewill means. I hope this is clearer now. If not then here is what the thefreedictionary.com says :

Freewill : “Done of one's own accord; voluntary.”

Voluntary : “of your own free will or design; done by choice; not forced or compelled; "man is a voluntary agent"; "participation was voluntary"; "voluntary manslaughter"; "voluntary generosity in times of disaster"; "voluntary social workers"; "a voluntary confession"

1. Done or undertaken of one's own free will:
2. Acting or done willingly and without constraint or expectation of reward:
3. Normally controlled by or subject to individual volition:
4. Capable of making choices; having the faculty of will.
5. Supported by contributions or charitable donations rather than by government appropriations:

Choice:
1. The act of choosing; selection.
2. The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.
3. One that is chosen.
4. A number or variety from which to choose:
5. The best or most preferable part.
6. Care in choosing.
7. An alternative.

Elle, I hope you can see how you cause great frustration. We ask you to define freewill.

I concluded you are saying there is no freewill. Which came from #132929. In it, you answered, "Just because we have the ability to think and reason, doesn’t equate we have freewill, nor does it mean we are capable or design to govern ourself." Which sure sounds to me like you just said we don't have free will.

In #132930, you said, "Ok, I re-read that section and I just can't see where it might come across as Lucifer has some freewill" and then proceeded to give other people's definition of freewill, which is not what was asked for. Trying to understand what YOUR definition of freewill was, Tom and I kept trying to get you to tell us. The only answer you sounded like you gave was that we don't have freewill. Which prompted me to say Which then prompted you to say, "I'm not following you? We plainly just don't have freewill."
Which sure sounds to me like you said we plainly just don't have freewill.
Which caused Tom to say, "Elle, what is it you think free will means?"
Which you answered, "Freewill can mean many things to different people. All of it I dissagree."
But yet now, you say about them, "These is what I believe freewill means." But yet again, you said, "which I used to believe"
Which is VERY frustrating since we are asking what you think of it -- not what someone else thinks of it. Why do you do that?

Which, in this latest post, you have continued doing it by saying, "Also in post #132930 I have stated quotes of many SDAs their definition of freewill..."
And then gave a definition from thefreedictionary.com which I am sure you don't agree with.

What gives?!

The only thing I can determine is that you believe we don't have freewill, that we are robots, that satan is a robot and God caused him to sin, but you find that idea repulsive, or think we do, and therefore refuse to say it out as a plainly, "Yes, Tom. That is what freewill means to me: That we don't."



Maybe, just maybe, on second thought, you do indeed believe what other people say about freewill, it's just that while you believe that is what freewill is, you don't believe we have that freewill.

Kland, sorry to frustrate you. I tried to answer your question at each time the best I could, but I'm not following your reasoning. Sorry.

If you want to discuss according to the Bible about whether we have freewill or not, I’m open to that.

From #134147:

It seems like a valid definition, though I don't agree with it.

For me, this is all it boils down to: "Can decide our direction." If you can decide, you have freewill, regardless of what information you may or may not have, or wisdom you may or may not have.

So are you saying God created us to be little gods that can self govern ourself?

That’s precisely the thing about “freewill” Elle, we can, however misguided it ultimately is, govern ourselves. That is what Lucifer’s main argument was in this GC. He was presenting that there was no reason why God’s created beings could live outside of His law and will if they so chose and managed to convince 1/3 of the angels that God had self-interested motives for, effectively commanding such will. And as I more widely understand it, when God made it that man should die if they sinned, thus choosing their own way, by barring access to the Tree of Life, this GC took on a new dimension now involving death. And Satan has variously been seeking to make this worst for man to cause them to hate God and not choose to follow him. So as I see it, this entire GC is only possible because all of God’s created being have freewill, starting with the angels who chose to rebel in Heaven.

And Satan had thought to make men be, or think to be, “little gods”. And the only way for man not to fall for this lie is to freely choose to obey God’s will. Otherwise, for those who choose to not do so, the consequence is eternal death (John 3:16-21).

So though rebelling man is fighting an unwinnable war against the Truth of God and His Perfect and Incontrovertible Ways, they still have the freedom to do so. The option is not God “forcing” men to do His Will. That would actually only prove Satan’s claims against God to have been right, -that He is selfish and self-seeking.

Elle, I think NJK did a good job in describing why there IS free will. If, as you claim, we don't have free will and if satan doesn't have free will, what caused satan to sin? Did God direct him to sin for some reason?

NJK, thx for your kind reply. I understand this view, however, it is not in harmony with the Bible. This makes us in contradiction with many texts which cannot be taken as it is simply written that needs us to add a few words so to make it fit to this view.

Do you have any Biblical support to back up this thrust of Lucifer’s deception?

I think it is very important to understand the fall of Lucifer and Man for in it reveals the nature of the GC.

I was intrique by your wording of "eternal death", so I search if there were such wording in the entire Bible or any approximation of these words. There's no such wording, not even "for ever death"! or even any close usage with dead.

This is another of man's foolish "imagination" based on mis-understanding of what constitute life or death. Death needs to be defined according to what the Bible reveals.