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Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13421
05/03/05 08:52 PM
05/03/05 08:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
1BC 1082, 1083
If the race had ceased to fall when Adam was driven from Eden, we should now be in a far more elevated condition physically, mentally, and morally. But while men deplore the fall of Adam, which has resulted in such unutterable woe, they disobey the express injunctions of God, as did Adam, although they have his example to warn them from doing as he did in violating the law of Jehovah. Would that man had stopped falling with Adam. But there has been a succession of falls. Men will not take warning from Adam's experience. They will indulge appetite and passion in direct violation of the law of God, and at the same time continue to mourn Adam's transgression, which brought sin into the world. {1BC 1082.7}

From Adam's day to ours there has been a succession of falls, each greater than the last, in every species of crime. God did not create a race of beings so devoid of health, beauty, and moral power as now exists in the world. Disease of every kind has been fearfully increasing upon the race. This has not been by God's especial providence, but directly contrary to His will. It has come by man's disregard of the very means which God has ordained to shield him from the terrible evils existing (Ibid., March 4, 1875). {1BC 1082.8}

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13422
05/03/05 09:25 PM
05/03/05 09:25 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Tom, of course it wasn't God's will for mankind to sin and suffer the consequences. By the way, the wages of sin is death, instant death, not a long life of pain and suffering. The plan of salvation postponed the real wages of sin. What we experience now when we sin isn't anything like the wages of sin. God overruled the wages of sin when Jesus became the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The long, lingering death we die, which basically begins the moment we are born of the flesh, is not the wages of sin.
I agree with most of this. The statement that the wages of sin is death, (or "sin pays its wages: death" which may better communicate the thought) is the second death, not the first. That's correct. However, there's no reason to consider it an instant death. Every account of the second death in Scripture is different than what you are suggesting. The death of Christ is the best indication of what the second death is all about, which is one of the main reasons He died (that we might see what death looked like). Christ tasted death for every man.

quote:

Since instant and immediate death (i.e., the second and eternal death) is the wages of sin, and not disease, destruction, and temporal death, what, then, is the origin and source of the terrible things that happen to us when we sin, or as we live in a sinful world? Remember, God didn’t promise Adam and Eve a long, lingering, slow, painful, temporal death when He warned them not to eat the forbidden fruit. He promised them immediate death.

To say that sin results in the second death (i.e. "the wages of sin is death") does not mean that that's all that sin causes. That's faulty logic. I can say doing exercise makes me tired, which is true, but that doesn't mean doing exercise doesn't result in anything else.

The physical death we experience, as well as all the misery we experience on this earth, is all due to sin. It comes from sentient beings choosing their own will instead of God's will. When God's will is chosen instead of one's own will, the life of Christ demonstrates what happen in this case.

Once again, I don't know why you think the second death is immediate, when every instance where it is referred to in Scripture, as well as the Spirit of Prophesy, declares otherwise. And above all, the death of Christ shows this isn't true.

quote:

In other words, God introduced a situation where, instead of an immediate eternal death, mankind now lives a slow death, full of pain and sadness and suffering, with mixed moments of joy and happiness, but eventually ending in a temporal death - and the promise of a resurrection. So, who made it all possible? Is a life of suffering part of the plan?

God didn't introduce this situation, Satan did! Important distinction! Satan is the author of sin and death.

What made it possible was free will, which means it's possible to choose a different way than God's way. Choosing God's way would have never led to pain or suffering.

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13423
05/03/05 09:26 PM
05/03/05 09:26 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Is it a sin to view God's character in a false light, and to speak of it in a false way?

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13424
05/03/05 10:25 PM
05/03/05 10:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, the length of time a sinner remains in the lake of fire is proportionate to their accumulated sinfulness. Some will expire sooner than others. Satan will die last. If Adam and Eve had received the wages of their sin, the instant they sinned, they would have expired rapidly, almost instantly.

The reason they did not die immediately is because Jesus paid their sin debt in full. “Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the son of God.” (1BC 1104)

The reason Jesus suffered so long on the cross, instead of dying immediately, is because He was receiving the wages of sin for all the sins of the world. His situation was totally different than if Adam and Eve had died the instant they sinned. They would have died for one sin, not all the sins of the world. It doesn’t take as long to die for one sin.

Because God did not allow Adam and Eve to receive the wages of their sin, the second they sinned, He introduced a situation where sinners would live a long, lingering death, full of pain and suffering. It wasn’t the result of mankind’s choice. Man chose death. It was Jesus who initiated the plan of salvation. Mankind didn’t ask God for probation, for a second chance. God just did it.

The results of God’s choice to initiate the plan of salvation are many, all of them good. All the sorrow, sadness, and suffering that Adam and Eve experienced, as a result of their probation, was made possible when God chose not to end their existence, the moment they sinned, as originally promised. God is both directly and indirectly responsible for all the suffering that occurs on earth, including the death of His only begotten Son. But it is a choice God made, because God is love, and He is not willing that any should perish.

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13425
05/03/05 10:27 PM
05/03/05 10:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
No!

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13426
05/03/05 10:30 PM
05/03/05 10:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
God has, and will, use evil angels to do His bidding. He has, and will, use the elements of nature to do His "strange work".

Psalm
78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [among them].

Ezekiel
21:31 And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, [and] skilful to destroy.
21:32 Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no [more] remembered: for I the LORD have spoken [it].

Isaiah
30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall show the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of [his] anger, and [with] the flame of a devouring fire, [with] scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13427
05/04/05 03:07 AM
05/04/05 03:07 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
No!
You mean no, it's not a sin to see God's character in a false light and speak of it that way?

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13428
05/04/05 03:13 AM
05/04/05 03:13 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
The reason Jesus suffered so long on the cross, instead of dying immediately, is because He was receiving the wages of sin for all the sins of the world.
Jesus died so quickly, those watching were astonished. If if were a matter of comensurate suffering in terms of some sort of amount, Christ would still be on the cross, as their are billions of people for whom Christ died. Figure some amount of minutes for each one the lake of fire, and you have millions of years; hence by the line of reasoning you are suggesting, Christ would still be there. In fact, He should still be dead, accoding to your way of thinking, because the law requires eternal death -- that is, ceasing to exist. So Christ would have to cease to exist to "pay" the wages for everyone's sin, if it were a "tit for tat" matter.

It's not the quantity, or amount, of Christ's suffering that's important, but the quality. That's why He died in such a short amount of time, and why that death "satisfies the just requirements of the law."

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13429
05/04/05 07:26 AM
05/04/05 07:26 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
Yeppers, Tom: you're so right! Christ died so rapidly that the Romans and Jewish rabbis were stunned. They had seen many crucifictions, and it normally took 24 hours or more, even after ones' supporting legs were smashed.

But on a muscular, healthy carpenter/walker/outdoorsman like Jesus, they expected a long and cruel showy struggle....not mere hours.

They took "insurance" and unwittingly fulfilled prophecy :

"The consent of the governor (Pilate) having been obtained, the legs of the two that were crucified with Jesus were broken to hasten their death; but Jesus was already dead, and they broke not his legs...A soldier, at the suggestion of the priests who wished to make the death of Jesus sure, thrust his spear into the Saviour's side, inflicting a wound which would have caused instant death if he had not already been dead"{3SP 171.3}

Re: "All need to understand the Process of Conversion." FLB 139. #13430
05/04/05 01:14 PM
05/04/05 01:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
You mean no, it's not a sin to see God's character in a false light and speak of it that way?
God winks at ignorance, but if a person knows the difference then they are guilty if they refuse the truth.

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