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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Elle]
#134288
06/08/11 07:41 PM
06/08/11 07:41 PM
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
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I understand this view, however, it is not in harmony with the Bible. He was presenting that there was no reason why God’s created beings could not live outside of His law and will if they so chose and managed to convince 1/3 of the angels that God had self-interested motives for, effectively commanding such will. Do you have any Biblical support to back up this thrust of Lucifer’s deception? I think it is very important to understand the fall of Lucifer and Man for in it reveals the nature of the GC. I exegetically see from the Bible in Isa 14:12-14 & Ezek 28:12-17 that the earth-projected aspirations of the Devil did foundationally inherently include doing away with God’s Law. Summarily said, if one aims to rule over the ‘angels of God’ (= e.g., Isa 14:13 (“stars” = Rev 12:4&9)) and this understandably cannot be achieved by force (i.e., vs. God directly), then the way to go would be to undermine what gives God this authority over these created beings/angels, and that is the obedience to God’s Law, which indeed included only worshipping God.* And of course to not make it seem that you are wanting to merely overthrow God, Satan had to undermine all of the Commandments, hence the inherently derived/implicated claim that these Laws are all not needed for the governing of God’s created beings. Indeed Satan claims apparently may have foundationally been that if this law is really based on Love, then Created Beings should not be commanded what they could or could not do as a demonstration of this Love for God, but that this would come both naturally and if they freely actually wanted to do so. *As a illustration, if one today wants to make a drastic change in government in the United States, e.g., from a Republican philosophy to a Democrat one, they are certainly not, though the Constitution allows them to, take up arms against the United States Government/Military, but will instead try to convince the people who will vote in the next election that their proposed political views/policies/laws are better than the present ones. (=(GC/God’s) Views, Requirements, Laws). With that exegetical Biblical basis, I see that the direct revelations that EGW had on this episode are indeed True and also agree with her derived commentary. This makes us in contradiction with many texts which cannot be taken as it is simply written that needs us to add a few words so to make it fit to this view. As it is key to understand what the Bible teaches on a subject, it is incontrovertible to include in this determination all of the texts of the Bible that speak on it. That is my approach and as I see that the notion of freewill is clearly stated in the Bible and also, as pointed out earlier, the many texts that seem to indicate no freewill either are not actually saying so when exegetically examined (i.e., including syntax) and/or are in the context of a believer have literally freely and desiringly turned over the reins of their life to God, to do as He sees and knows is best, then I do not see that the Bible is teaching that we do not have freewill. There are indeed to many examples and also Theological, Doctrinal and Prophetic statements to the contrary. All of those have to be duly taken into full and proper consideration to arrive at the accurate understanding on this Teaching.
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Elle]
#134289
06/08/11 07:43 PM
06/08/11 07:43 PM
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
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NJK: And Satan had thought to make men be, or think to be, “little gods”. And the only way for man not to fall for this lie is to freely choose to obey God’s will. Otherwise, for those who choose to not do so, the consequence is eternal death (John 3:16-21).
Elle: I was intrique by your wording of "eternal death", so I search if there were such wording in the entire Bible or any approximation of these words. There's no such wording, not even "for ever death"! or even any close usage with dead. (1) I added the term “eternal” because all those who die the First Death will be resurrected to die the Second Death which is the one that is “eternal” as understood by the Biblical teaching on the result of the Hell Fire Judgement. (2) the notion of “eternal” is, in my Biblical understanding, inherently involved in death unless God intervenes to overturn this naturally resulting state. That is why the Bible does not need to explicitly say “eternal death” however, as seen in the John 3:16-21 passage that I had referred to, as well as passages such as John 5:24; Rom 6:23, it is the direct opposite of ‘living eternally’. And if one can live eternally while dead (??!), then they are not actually “dead”. Case in point, those who will live many days in the fires of Hell and then not die, will indeed be alive and not dead. It is only when they have fully paid the penalty for their sins that they will die that Second (and by implication, “Eternal”) Death. This is another of man's foolish "imagination" based on mis-understanding of what constitute life or death. Death needs to be defined according to what the Bible reveals. I gather/presume by your denunciation here that you do not have the common understanding of death as SDA’s/the SOP teach. Therefore do state what you see the Bible’s teaching on death is (if different).
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Elle]
#134292
06/08/11 08:48 PM
06/08/11 08:48 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,635
California, USA
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From #134147: "freewill is having the ability to generate our own wise thoughts and derive proper choices from it, and therefore can decide our direction based on an intelligent choice." It seems like a valid definition, though I don't agree with it. For me, this is all it boils down to: "Can decide our direction." If you can decide, you have freewill, regardless of what information you may or may not have, or wisdom you may or may not have. So are you saying God created us to be little gods that can self govern ourself? I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is merely parroting the Bible. Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Man was made in God's likeness. That likeness involves quite a few characteristics, but choosing is certainly one of them. Even in our fallen state, we are called upon to make choices, to make decisions. Deuteronomy 30:19 ... I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Joshua 24:15 ... choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...
Proverbs 12:26 The righteous should choose his friends carefully... Does that mean we are capable of governing ourselves? No. The Bible is very clear about our inability to be good governors, and our need to submit to God. However, the fact that we are called upon to submit to God should tell us that it remains with us to choose Him over any other gods that are vying for our loyalty. If we had no choice in the matter, there would be no need to submit.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: asygo]
#134298
06/08/11 09:33 PM
06/08/11 09:33 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Posts: 5,635
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"Submission" without the free will to choose whether or not to submit is not true submission, but just a sneaky form of slavery.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Elle]
#134326
06/09/11 06:25 PM
06/09/11 06:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I was intrique by your wording of "eternal death", so I search if there were such wording in the entire Bible or any approximation of these words. There's no such wording, not even "for ever death"! or even any close usage with dead. Elle, if you look at the notes of the NET Bible about John 11:26, you will see that the Greek says, literally, "will never die forever." In fact, our best Portuguese translation says exactly that. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament says about this passage: Shall never die (ou mh apoqanh eiß ton aiwna). Strong double negative ou mh with second aorist active subjunctive of apoqnhskw again (but spiritual death, this time), "shall not die for ever" (eternal death).
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Elle]
#134327
06/09/11 06:30 PM
06/09/11 06:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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So are you saying God created us to be little gods that can self govern ourself? Perhaps a better definition would be that God created us with the ability to choose who will govern us. In fact, after sin, this ability is preserved only through the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives. If it weren't for this, we would always and forever choose Satan.
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: kland]
#134334
06/09/11 09:21 PM
06/09/11 09:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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We plainly just don't have freewill. We are free beings in the sense that God can move us wherever and whenever He pleases, but God has never endow us or the angels, or any other living creatures with the inherent ability to govern ourself or possess any other abilities as the freewill concept suggest. All comes from above. All needs to be continually be dependant of God to supply all things at all time. That's what makes God -- God. He provides for all, he guides all, he moves all, he fulfills all,-- God is really the All in All. Why would God choose to guide things in such a goofy way? Evil, even. I can understand the existence of the horrific things that happen on this planet if one allows for the existence of evil beings with free will, but how could it be possible to explain these things if *God* is guiding everything? What sort of God would "guide" things like rape, child abuse, torture, divorce, cancer, etc.?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Elle]
#134337
06/09/11 10:09 PM
06/09/11 10:09 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Freewill is having the ability to generate our own wise thoughts and derive proper choices from it, and therefore can decide our direction based on an intelligent choice. The "therefore" isn't necessary, as far as articulating a definition is concerned, so the definition comes down to: Freewill is having the ability to generate our own wise thoughts and derive proper choices from it. So this involves two things: 1.Having the ability to generate one's own wise thoughts. 2.Having the ability to derive proper choices from those self-generated wise thoughts. A more straight-forward definition would be: 1.Having the ability to derive proper choices from one's self-generated thoughts. I think this isn't a bad definition. I don't see why the requirement for one to be able to self-generate wise thoughts would be necessary; just thoughts which enable one to make proper decisions should be sufficient. So where is the problem? Is it that we cannot self-generate thoughts? Or is it that we cannot make proper decisions from these thoughts which are self-generated? Where in Scripture is either of these things suggested? (i.e., that we cannot self-generate thoughts, or that we cannot make proper decisions). Indeed, doesn't the mere fact that there is a judgment pre-suppose that we have the ability to make proper decisions? I can see the argument being made that we cannot make proper decisions apart without divine assistance, but not that we cannot, even with divine assistance, make proper decisions. If this weren't the case (that even with divine assistance, we cannot make proper decisions), it would seem to again beg the question as to what we would be judged upon.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Tom]
#134338
06/09/11 10:10 PM
06/09/11 10:10 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,635
California, USA
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He provides for all, he guides all, he moves all, he fulfills all,-- God is really the All in All. Matthew 23:35 ...the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. When Zechariah was murdered, was it God who was guiding them? Taking a few steps back, why would God command anything if He is the one doing everything anyway? If that was the case, He would have said to Adam, "You should not eat that fruit, but you have no choice in the matter. One of these days, I will make you eat it, then you will die because of it." This view is not of a God who wants communion, but one who wants toys.
By God's grace, Arnold
1 John 5:11-13 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)?
[Re: Rosangela]
#134344
06/09/11 10:59 PM
06/09/11 10:59 PM
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Banned Member
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
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I was intrique by your wording of "eternal death", so I search if there were such wording in the entire Bible or any approximation of these words. There's no such wording, not even "for ever death"! or even any close usage with dead. Elle, if you look at the notes of the NET Bible about John 11:26, you will see that the Greek says, literally, "will never die forever." In fact, our best Portuguese translation says exactly that. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament says about this passage: Shall never die (ou mh apoqanh eiß ton aiwna). Strong double negative ou mh with second aorist active subjunctive of apoqnhskw again (but spiritual death, this time), "shall not die for ever" (eternal death). That is a great exegetical point/dig Rosangela. I have never thought to ever exegetically verify that text that many use to support and eternal soul in the NT era, nor thus did it even come t mind here, as it just did not occur to me that such a clear indication as to what extent of death Jesus was referring to here would be so grossly mistranslated, indeed completely non-translated. Indeed none of the major English version (NASB, NKJV, KJV, RSV/NRSV, NIV) have including this key “forever” (or literally “into the age”) in their translation. Simply unbelievable!!! If that’s not doctrinal bias....
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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