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Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
#134154
06/04/11 09:08 PM
06/04/11 09:08 PM
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A person stated in our Sabbath School Class discussion this morning that all are born saved and all choose to be lost.
This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.
Do you agree or disagree with the above?
I tend to disagree, but am in research mode at this time, which is basically why I created this thread for your thoughts regarding this.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: Daryl]
#134156
06/04/11 09:33 PM
06/04/11 09:33 PM
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I found the following from the writings of EGW that may answer this: The Salvation of Infants and Imbeciles
As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again nevermore to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life.--2SM 260 (1858). {LDE 293.1}
Some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, "How can little children have this test and trial?" I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians. . . . {LDE 293.2}
Whether all the children of unbelieving parents will be saved we cannot tell, because God has not made known His purpose in regard to this matter, and we had better leave it where God has left it and dwell upon subjects made plain in His Word.--3SM 313-315 (1885). {LDE 293.3}
In regard to the case of A, you see him as he now is and deplore his simplicity. He is without the consciousness of sin. The grace of God will remove all this hereditary, transmitted imbecility, and he will have an inheritance among the saints in light. To you the Lord has given reason. A is a child as far as the capacity of reason is concerned, but he has the submission and obedience of a child.--8MR 210 (1893). {LDE 293.4}
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: Daryl]
#134169
06/05/11 01:53 AM
06/05/11 01:53 AM
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Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
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"All have sinned" therefore all must die. All must choose rebirth or all must die. In Christ, and only in Christ, can any one escape condemnation and eternal death.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#134176
06/05/11 12:23 PM
06/05/11 12:23 PM
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I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but can you back this up from the Bible and/or from the writings of EGW? "All have sinned" therefore all must die. All must choose rebirth or all must die. In Christ, and only in Christ, can any one escape condemnation and eternal death.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: Daryl]
#134207
06/06/11 02:24 PM
06/06/11 02:24 PM
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The best Bible Study on this topic, that I know of, is Steps to Christ.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: Daryl]
#134231
06/07/11 01:30 PM
06/07/11 01:30 PM
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Midland
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This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.
Accountability? Age of 18, 21, or defined by whom? Guess I'm saying I could not agree with that statement as it has a variable definition according to who you speak to. Or what country or state you are in.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: kland]
#134329
06/09/11 06:52 PM
06/09/11 06:52 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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A person stated in our Sabbath School Class discussion this morning that all are born saved and all choose to be lost.
This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.
Do you agree or disagree with the above? Tom claims this was Jones and Waggoner's position, if I'm not mistaken, but I couldn't find evidence for this. Jack Sequeira and other modern SDA exponents hold this position.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: Rosangela]
#134348
06/10/11 12:43 AM
06/10/11 12:43 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Daryl:A person stated in our Sabbath School Class discussion this morning that all are born saved and all choose to be lost.
This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.
Do you agree or disagree with the above?
R:Tom claims this was Jones and Waggoner's position, if I'm not mistaken, but I couldn't find evidence for this.
Jack Sequeira and other modern SDA exponents hold this position. I've never claimed that Jones and Waggoner taught that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection. Also it's not true that Sequeira holds this position. By "other modern SDA exponents," who did you have in mind?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: Tom]
#134349
06/10/11 12:58 AM
06/10/11 12:58 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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A person stated in our Sabbath School Class discussion this morning that all are born saved and all choose to be lost.
This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.
Do you agree or disagree with the above?
I tend to disagree, but am in research mode at this time, which is basically why I created this thread for your thoughts regarding this. When dealing with this subject, it's very important to be careful with how one expresses things. Here's something from Waggoner: All this deliverance is "according to the will of our God and Father." The will of God is our sanctification. 1Thess.4:3. He willeth that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim.2:4. And He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." Eph.1:11. "What! do you mean to teach universal salvation?" We mean to teach just what the Word of God teaches,--that "the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men." Titus 2:11, R.V. God has wrought out salvation for every man, and has given it to him; but the majority spurn it, and throw it away. The Judgment will reveal the fact that full and complete salvation was given to every man, and that the lost have deliberately thrown away their birthright possession. Thus every mouth will be stopped.
The will of God is, therefore, something to rejoice in, and not something to be accepted with a wry face, and merely endured. Even though it involves suffering, it is for our good, and is designed to work "for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." Rom.8:28; 2Cor.4:17. In the law His will is revealed (Rom.2:18), and we should, therefore, study it, saying with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God." Ps.40:8. (The Glad Tidings) Something else: The blessing is freedom from sin, even as the curse is the doing of sin; and as the curse reveals the cross, so we find that the very curse is by the Lord made to proclaim the blessing. The fact that we live, although we are sinners, is the assurance that deliverance from the sin is ours. "While there's life there's hope," says the adage. Yes, because the Life is our hope. Thank God for the blessed hope! The blessing has come upon all men; for "as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Rom.5:18. God, who is "no respecter of persons," "hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." Eph.1:3. It is ours to keep. If any one has not this blessing, it is because he has not recognized the gift, or has deliberately thrown it away. (ibid.) Here's the last sentence: If any one has not this blessing, it is because he has not recognized the gift, or has deliberately thrown it away. Something from the SOP: By His wonderful work of giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God'—1SM 343. Something else: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.(DA 176) To say that we are born saved, I think may be vague. What does this mean? What Waggoner says is that God has given a gift to all, and that this gift must be either be neglected or spurned to not have effect. What Ellen White says is that Christ restored the entire race of men to favor with God. This would seem to imply that a person must do something to lose this favor. In the Desire of Ages quote she brings out that a person must do something to be lost, which is to resist the drawing of the Holy Spirit. This is seen by the following: 1.How then are we to be saved? 2.Look and live. 3.All who do not resist the drawing of the love of God will do this. Therefore to be lost, one must resist the drawing of the love of God shining from the cross. Regarding all being saved if they die before the age of accountability, from reading EGW's comments in Selected Messages and elsewhere (3SM, IIRC, speaks specifically to the issue of infants/young children dying before the age of accountability) what I believe is the following: 1.God will take everyone to heaven He can. 2.If a person's character is not in harmony with God and His principles, such cannot be taken to heaven, because such would be miserable in heaven. 3.An infant/young child's capacity to be taken to heaven is largely impacted by its parents. As I recall (from 3SM), she states directly that some believers infants/young children will not be taken to heaven. She strongly implies, but does not explicitly state, that some unbeliever's infants/young children will be taken to heaven.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost?
[Re: kland]
#134358
06/10/11 01:37 PM
06/10/11 01:37 PM
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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DF: This same person also said that the implication is that those who are born up to the age of accountability who die prior to the age of accountability will all rise up at the 1st resurrection.
K: Accountability? Age of 18, 21, or defined by whom? Guess I'm saying I could not agree with that statement as it has a variable definition according to who you speak to. Or what country or state you are in. We raised 3 children and I can testify that each one of them were aware of right and wrong beginning within the first few months of life. The character is basically established within the fist five years. And, since God judges people based on what they know and believe, it stands to reason the eternal destiny of children will be determined pretty much the same way as everyone else.
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