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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#147494
11/26/12 01:14 PM
11/26/12 01:14 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Green, I have an objection to your use of the word, "moderation".
If each evening, I go to the cupboard and get my bottle of "solanine" and take just a half a teaspoon of it, do you think that is considered "moderation"?
And don't get bogged down if you think a half a teaspoon, is too much. Do you consider any amount, intentional taken, for no intended medical purposes, "moderation"?
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#147498
11/26/12 01:56 PM
11/26/12 01:56 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Do you think that when a 103 year old patient has come to the hospital to die, the important message to give her is to stop using the sugar she is used to? That was the question.
It would, of course, be better if she had come to one of our own sanitariums if there had been one in the area, but this happened to be a government hospital where no preaching is allowed, or the nurse will be dismissed. But she is permitted to show Christian kindness, and that has also given results.
I have worked in a SDA private sanitarium where the SDA medical director asked me to light the cigarettes for patients outside the building. Those patients were the kind who had no sense left to understand they should not smoke. How do you take care of such patients? Add to their sufferings by taking away their tobacco?
I'd like to hear your honest answer to these questions.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#147501
11/26/12 02:07 PM
11/26/12 02:07 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Johann, do you feel there is a point where someone is too old to hear the gospel? No, not at all, if you are given the opportunity.
Also, if you think preaching refers to the health message, do you think nurses are preaching when they give medicine to the patients?
That is, government sanctioned preaching?
The health message is the right arm of our message. We do way too little of proclaiming it. In a government hospital it is the medical director, physicians, and senior staff who decide what to do with the patients. Is this the place to give the patients something else?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#147507
11/26/12 03:08 PM
11/26/12 03:08 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Green, I have an objection to your use of the word, "moderation".
If each evening, I go to the cupboard and get my bottle of "solanine" and take just a half a teaspoon of it, do you think that is considered "moderation"?
And don't get bogged down if you think a half a teaspoon, is too much. Do you consider any amount, intentional taken, for no intended medical purposes, "moderation"?
kland, Perhaps you need to understand the big picture of "moderation." It's not "moderate" to be focused so much on the details/minutiae. Regarding "solanine," here's the "minutiae" for you, since that is of interest to you. Potato plant poisoning - green tubers and sprouts Potato plant poisoning occurs when someone eats the green tubers or new sprouts of the potato plant. This is for information only and not for use in the treatment or management of an actual poison exposure. If you have an exposure, you should call your local emergency number (such as 911) or the National Poison Control Center at 1-800-222-1222. Poisonous IngredientSolanine (very toxic even in small amounts) Where FoundThe poison is found throughout the plant, but especially in green potatoes and new sprouts. Never eat potatoes that are spoiled or green below the skin. Always throw away the sprouts. Potatoes that are not green and have had any sprouts removed are safe to eat. SymptomsHome CareSeek immediate medical help. Do NOT make a person throw up unless told to do so by poison control or a health care professional. Before Calling EmergencyDetermine the following information: - Patient's age, weight, and condition
- Time it was swallowed
- Amount swallowed
- Name and part of plant that was swallowed
Poison ControlThe National Poison Control Center (1-800-222-1222) can be called from anywhere in the United States. This national hotline number will let you talk to experts in poisoning. They will give you further instructions. This is a free and confidential service. All local poison control centers in the United States use this national number. You should call if you have any questions about poisoning or poison prevention. It does NOT need to be an emergency. You can call for any reason, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. See: Poison control center - emergency number What to Expect at the Emergency RoomThe health care provider will measure and monitor your vital signs, including temperature, pulse, breathing rate, and blood pressure. Symptoms will be treated as appropriate. You may receive: - Activated charcoal
- Breathing support
- Fluids through a vein (IV)
- Tube through the mouth into the stomach to wash out the stomach (gastric lavage)
Outlook (Prognosis)How well you do depends on the amount of poison swallowed and how quickly treatment is received. The faster you get medical help, the better the chance for recovery. Death has been reported, but is rare. Alternative NamesSolanum tuberosum poisoning ReferencesHostetler MA, Schneider SM. Poisonous plants. In: Tintinalli JE, Kelen GD, Stapczynski JS, Ma OJ, Cline DM, eds. Emergency Medicine: A Comprehensive Study Guide. 6th ed. New York, NY: McGraw-Hill; 2004:chap 205. Graeme K. Toxic plant ingestions. In: Auerbach PS, ed. Wilderness Medicine. 5th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Mosby Elsevier; 2007:chap 58. Update Date: 12/15/2011Updated by: Eric Perez, MD, St. Luke's / Roosevelt Hospital Center, NY, NY, and Pegasus Emergency Group (Meadowlands and Hunterdon Medical Centers), NJ. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network. That makes it appear as if even a tiny amount would be too much, doesn't it? Certainly, a half a teaspoon of pure solanine would be lethal. Anything lethal is immoderate, would you agree? So a half a teaspoon would be immoderate. But if "any amount" of solanine equals "immoderate," then you had better give up tomatoes, potatoes, bell peppers, eggplants, chile peppers, and tomatillos at once. They all contain solanine, albeit in very small amounts. Consider this: While in north-eastern Taiwan a missionary, not a native to Taiwan, went to the market for vegetables. After buying some other things, she noticed an old lady on the corner with some greens she did not recognize. Knowing that the lady would sit there until she'd sold the last of her vegetables, and taking compassion on her, she bought them. When she arrived back at the classroom with her vegetables, it was immediately noticed by one familiar with them what those "greens" were--poison nightshade! Shocked that such would be sold in the market as food, an internet search commenced which revealed that "solanine" is only toxic to certain genetics. There are people who can tolerate it quite well, and others who would get deathly sick. "Moderation" means more than just what an individual allows for himself or for herself. It means not chastising others for what they allow for themselves. In means, instead of raking that old lady up and down the coals for selling poison nightshade greens, smiling and sharing the love of Jesus with her as if nothing had happened. Moderation means that I, as a child of God, must not try to impose my own strict standards on everyone else. We may educate others, gently, but should never force. Cyanide is another example for "moderation." It is present in the seeds of cherries, apricots, apples, etc. Many kinds of fruits and vegetables have it--maybe most of them. Yet cyanide is even more toxic than solanine. Here's a quote from the CDC about it. Highlights
Exposure to high levels of cyanide harms the brain and heart, and may cause coma and death. Exposure to lower levels may result in breathing difficulties, heart pains, vomiting, blood changes, headaches, and enlargement of the thyroid gland. Cyanide has been found in at least 471 of the 1,662 National Priorities List sites identified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).
What is cyanide?
Cyanide is usually found joined with other chemicals to form compounds. Examples of simple cyanide compounds are hydrogen cyanide, sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide. Certain bacteria, fungi, and algae can produce cyanide, and cyanide is found in a number of foods and plants. In certain plant foods, including almonds, millet sprouts, lima beans, soy, spinach, bamboo shoots, and cassava roots (which are a major source of food in tropical countries), cyanides occur naturally as part of sugars or other naturally-occurring compounds. However, the edible parts of plants that are eaten in the United States, including tapioca which is made from cassava roots, contain relatively low amounts of cyanide. So if "moderation" to you, kland, means "zero tolerance" for anything "toxic," you better start learning to avoid most fruits and vegetables, especially their seeds. By the way, have you heard that eating the pits of apricots (containing cyanide) or eating apple seeds (containing cyanide) is believed to help fight cancer? Moderation. It's what the Bible tells us we need. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#147509
11/26/12 03:23 PM
11/26/12 03:23 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The wine which Christ provided for the feast, and that which He gave to the disciples as a symbol of His own blood, was the pure juice of the grape. To this the prophet Isaiah refers when he speaks of the new wine "in the cluster," and says, "Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. {DA 149.3}
It was Christ who in the Old Testament gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1. And He Himself provided no such beverage. Satan tempts men to indulgence that will becloud reason and benumb the spiritual perceptions, but Christ teaches us to bring the lower nature into subjection. His whole life was an example of self-denial. In order to break the power of appetite, He suffered in our behalf the severest test that humanity could endure. It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist should drink neither wine nor strong drink. It was He who enjoined similar abstinence upon the wife of Manoah. And He pronounced a curse upon the man who should put the bottle to his neighbor's lips. Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine which He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. Its effect was to bring the taste into harmony with a healthful appetite. {DA 149.4} Jesus commands us not to drink alcoholic beverages (wine and strong drink). I'm not going to stress over cough medicine.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#147569
11/27/12 03:57 PM
11/27/12 03:57 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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That makes it appear as if even a tiny amount would be too much, doesn't it? Certainly, a half a teaspoon of pure solanine would be lethal. Anything lethal is immoderate, would you agree? So a half a teaspoon would be immoderate. Green, you always amaze me that you seem to understand my point, agree with it, and then contradict yourself. And, you may want to do some further searches about green potatoes and apricots regarding the amount needed to cause harm. Folklore repeated does not make a fact. Poinsettia comes to mind...
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Mountain Man]
#147570
11/27/12 03:58 PM
11/27/12 03:58 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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Jesus commands us not to drink alcoholic beverages (wine and strong drink). I'm not going to stress over cough medicine.
Umm...? Umm.... How about cooking with wine?
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: Johann]
#147573
11/27/12 04:03 PM
11/27/12 04:03 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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|
Johann, do you feel there is a point where someone is too old to hear the gospel? No, not at all, if you are given the opportunity.
Also, if you think preaching refers to the health message, do you think nurses are preaching when they give medicine to the patients?
That is, government sanctioned preaching?
The health message is the right arm of our message. We do way too little of proclaiming it. In a government hospital it is the medical director, physicians, and senior staff who decide what to do with the patients. Is this the place to give the patients something else? True, it is the hospital who decides such things. But, you said the patient asked. Maybe your question has nothing to do with her age or state of condition but whether we should answer patient's questions if the answers may be disagreeable to those in charge? Many times patients are told they only have a few weeks or days to live and they end up living a lot longer. I see the question you raised as to whether we should answer it or only if we think it will be worthwhile for them to know.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#147584
11/27/12 05:55 PM
11/27/12 05:55 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Jesus commands us not to drink alcoholic beverages (wine and strong drink). I'm not going to stress over cough medicine.
Umm...? Umm.... How about cooking with wine? Not going to stress over cooking with wine. My judgment has never been impaired because I used cough medicine or cooked with wine.
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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol
[Re: kland]
#147619
11/28/12 02:18 AM
11/28/12 02:18 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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That makes it appear as if even a tiny amount would be too much, doesn't it? Certainly, a half a teaspoon of pure solanine would be lethal. Anything lethal is immoderate, would you agree? So a half a teaspoon would be immoderate. Green, you always amaze me that you seem to understand my point, agree with it, and then contradict yourself. And, you may want to do some further searches about green potatoes and apricots regarding the amount needed to cause harm. Folklore repeated does not make a fact. Poinsettia comes to mind... I'm not sure what you are saying there. A half a teaspoon of green potato does not equal a half a teaspoon of solanine. I'm not aware of any folklore about poinsettias. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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