1- Sin is rebellion against God’s law, and ultimately rebellion against God Himself. It’s rebellion against everything that God is: love, goodness, truth, justice. It is God who determines the punishment for sin on the basis of how offensive sin is to Him, and this is not arbitrary.

Tom: Right, it's not arbitrary. It is dependent on the nature of the sin itself. It is according to the principles by which God created His children. The capacity to love includes the capacity to reject love. Rejecting God results in death. Not by an arbitrary means, but as a result of that choice. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked, and the pain the wicked suffer will depend on how much light they have rejected.

R: It will be the intensity of the sufferings of Christ that will determine the intensity and duration of the punishment of the wicked.

Tom: The intensity of the sufferings of Christ *demonstrate* the intensity and duration of the punishment of the wicked. It's not like God is ticked off or something like that and has to vent His anger on the wicked. The wicked suffer because they have so hardened their hearts against God that they have formed characters to which God's presence is a consuming fire.

R: The Son of God could fully understand the aggravating sins of the transgressor, and in His sinless character He alone could make an acceptable atonement for man in suffering the agonizing sense of His Father's displeasure. The sorrow and anguish of the Son of God for the sins of the world were proportionate to His divine excellence and purity, as well as to the magnitude of the offense. {Con 50.1}

His [Christ’s] suffering was proportionate to the perfection of His holiness and His hatred of sin. {ST, January 17, 1900}

The penalty for breaking the law of God is proportionate to the price paid to redeem its transgressors. {FLB 354}

Therefore, the intensity and duration of the anguish to be felt by the sinner has to be proportionate to the anguish Christ experienced because of His hatred of sin.

Tom: The intensity and duration of the anguish to be felt by the sinner is proportionate to their acquaintance with truth. As Christ knew the truth as no one else, His suffering was greater. The suffering caused by sin is not an arbitrary matter, but comes with the sin itself. It is the sin which causes suffering and death. This is the message God has been trying to communicate from the beginning. It is sin, and not God, that we should be afraid of. God is our friend. Sin is the enemy.

R: 2- The exclusion from heaven is voluntary on the part of the wicked in the sense that they choose not to comply with the conditions; but it is imposed by God in the sense that God established that those who do not comply with His conditions cannot inherit His kingdom, which means that He has no other option but to remove their lives.

Tom: It's voluntary in the sense that they would long to flee from the holy place. The presence of God would be awful for them. That's just what Ellen White says in the direct context of the statement that their choice is voluntary. It's right there in the GC 542 I think it is quote.

3- As the first Adam brought the condemnation of God upon all men, the second Adam brought the favor of God (His grace) upon all men (Rom. 5). The difference is that all men are by default the posterity of Adam, but only those who accpet Christ by faith are His posterity. God has placed every individual of our race under divine favor in the sense that all are offered His favor, not in the sense that all enjoy His favor.

Tom: That's not what EGW says at all. "He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God." This is past tense. It's something Christ already did. It's not about man, but about Christ. It's not contingent upon man, because it's a work done by Christ for "the whole human race."

As the Spirit of Prophesy puts it, "to the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life." That is, the death of Christ accomplished a corporate justification of the human race which allows it to exist. That's just what the FW statement on pages 21 and 22 says. Christ's death actually accomplished something for every human being. Even the ability to reject God's grace and be lost forever was purchased at infinite cost by Jesus Christ. If one died for all, then all died. 2 Cor. 5:14. All. See Romans 5:18 as well. As many as were condemned by the offense of Adam, just so many received "justification of life" -- that is the same idea as "to the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life." Notice that there's nothing a person has to do to receive this gift. Just be alive, and you have it. Christ purchased our very physical life! Even the air we breath is the purchase of His blood! Everywhere is the grace of God evident. As the Spirit of Prophesy puts it, there is an atmosphere of grace around us as real as the air we breath.

R: Those who accept Christ are under God’s favor, but sinners are under God’s condemnation, not His favor:

Tom: Christ restored the whole race of men to favor with God. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. The fact that we live physically is proof that we have favor with God. The wages of sin is death, and we've all sinned. If it weren't for God's favor, we'd be dead.

R: The soul that believes in Christ may be cleansed from all defilement, and, through the grace of Christ, may be restored to divine favor. {ST, September 23, 1889}

Man is unworthy of any favor from God; but as Christ becomes his righteousness, he may ask and receive, in his name and through his merit, the grace and favor of God.{ST, November 10, 1890}

Christ clothed His divinity with humanity, and by His death made it possible for man to be restored to the favor that Adam lost. {5MR 250}

The Creator loves His creatures, but he who loves sin more than righteousness, error more than truth, perpetuates the transgression that brought woe into our world, and cannot be regarded with favor by the God of truth. ... As we behold Christ, pierced for our sins, we shall see that we cannot break the law of God and remain in His favor; we shall feel that as sinners we must lay hold of the merits of Christ and cease to sin. {1SM 311, 312}

But let no one flatter himself that he may transgress the commandments, and yet receive the favor of God. In the government of God, justice and grace stand side by side. The law cannot be transgressed with impunity. {ST, October 10, 1892 par. 2}

Our money means souls, and it is to be used to bring a knowledge of the truth to those who, because of sin, are under the condemnation of God. {7T 91.3}

Tom: The thing to keep in mind is the difference between the corporate and the individual. Corporately, we all have favor. Individually we experience favor when we believe. The same thing applies to forgiveness, justification, pardon, salvation -- all of these words. In Christ *all* men have these things. I'll try to write more on this tomorrow, as it's too late now.

Anyway the concept takes awhile to grasp. It took me several months anyway.

Old Tom: The intensity and duration of the anguish to be felt by the sinner is proportionate to their acquaintance with truth. As Christ knew the truth as no one else, His suffering was greater.

R: The light or truth is the holy character of God, which Christ possessed and that’s why sin was so offensive to Him; disharmony with the principles of God’s character brings dishonor to God, and that’s why

"The punishment inflicted on human beings will in every case be proportionate to the dishonor they have brought on God."--8MR 168 (1901). {LDE 217}

Tom: It's true that the suffering of those who reject God will be proportionate to the dishonor they have brought on God. How could it be otherwise? It's proportionate because their suffering is directly related to their sin. The more sin, the more suffering, and the more dishonor to God.

But the cause of their suffering is due to their own choice, their own sin.

"The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." (DA 764)

It's hard to know what to underline, since all the points are good, but the underlined portion is the main point I wanted to make here. The wicked ruin their own characters so that God's presence becomes to them a consuming fire. They separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from life. This is what causes their death. "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."

Old Tom:The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked, and the pain the wicked suffer will depend on how much light they have rejected.

R: The personal rejection of light is not all that is involved. Take Darwin, for instance. He rejected light and will be judged by that, but he will also be judged and punished by the influence he exerted, which led others to perdition.

Tom: When he becomes aware of what he has done, he will suffer, as that knowledge will be painful to him. The recognition of the truth causes pain. It's not an arbitrary thing that God will afflict upon him because He's ticked off. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Old Tom:The suffering caused by sin is not an arbitrary matter, but comes with the sin itself. It is the sin which causes suffering and death.

R:This is OK, but sin could continue for ever if God did not choose to put an end to it.

Tom: Sin is suicidal. It results in one cutting oneself off from God and thus from life. The only way sin could exist would be if God perpetuated it -- but that would be contrary to His character. God's purpose, from the very beginning has been to eliminate sin as quickly as possible. The only means possible to do this is by means of the priniples of love, mercy and truth.

The whole controversy of sin arose in a being who embarked upon a principle contrary to the principles of God's government and His character. Namely, he was selfish. Selfishness is suicidal, but if God had allowed Satan to die immediately, his death would have been misunderstood as God's killing him, and the evil seed of sin would have remained. God had to come up with a way to eliminate sin from the root (which is the selfishness)

To do this He must manifest His character in a way as to remove all doubts, and demonstrate what sin was really all about. This He did by Jesus Christ, especially on the cross. Christ died a painful death, such as the wicked will die at the end. His suffering and death was caused by the mental anguish which sin causes upon the mind -- not because God tortured Him or killed Him. There is no need for us to have doubts as to what the nature of the death the wicked is because Christ has clearly demonstrated it.

The fact that Christ was willing to die, even feeling that He would be eternal loss, says wonderful things about God's character. It says that God views our eternal destiny as more important than His own. He is willing to do anything to save us, even die eternally. What love! What a wonderful God!

As we behold that love, we are transformed, and that transformation saves us. We are changed into the same image, and prepared to live in God's presence. The light of the glory of God begins, even now, to be life to us.

On the other hand, for those who refuse to see the truth in this life, when the truth is inevitably revealed at the end, they won't be able to bear it. It will cause great suffering and death.

It's like kemotherapy. A little bit results in the death of cancer, but the whole treatment at one time would kill the sinner. We couldn't stand to see the whole truth of God's character all at once, because a revelation of God's character necessitates a revelation of our own. As we see Him more clearly, we see ourselves more clearly. Seeing ourselves as we really are a little at a time leads to repentance and healing. Seeing it all at once leads to suffering and death.

R: God rejects evil, and He will choose to put it away from His kingdom. Thus those who cling to evil must be rejected by God with the evil.

Tom: Yes, and the way God rejects the evil is by revealing His glory, which is His character, which gives life to the righteous at the same time it is destroying sin.

Velha Rosangela: The exclusion from heaven is voluntary on the part of the wicked in the sense that they choose not to comply with the conditions; but it is imposed by God in the sense that God established that those who do not comply with His conditions cannot inherit His kingdom, which means that He has no other option but to remove their lives.

Nova Rosangela: Confirming this, Ellen White says:

"A great price has been paid for the redemption of man, and none who are untruthful, impure, or unrighteous can enter the kingdom of heaven. If men do not make Christ their personal Saviour, and become true and pure and holy, there is only one course for the Lord to pursue. He must destroy the sinner, for evil natures cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Thus it is that sin, if not destroyed, will destroy the sinner, just as Satan designed it should." {16MR 273}

Tom: Right, and He destroys sin by manifesting His glory. To sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire.

Old Tom:"He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God." This is past tense. It's something Christ already did. It's not about man, but about Christ. It's not contingent upon man, because it's a work done by Christ for "the whole human race."

R:
“Lucifer had declared God's law to be of such a character that its penalty could not be remitted, and therefore every transgressor must be forever debarred from the Creator's favor. He had claimed that the sinful race were placed beyond redemption, and were therefore his rightful prey.” {4SP 323}

Tom: It really doesn't matter what Lucifer declares. He's a liar. God proved his accusations false, because no transgressors were debarred from God's favor. This is demonstrated by the fact that He solved the world that He gave every one of them His Son. What greater display of favor than this could there be?

R: Christ changed this when He died on the cross.

Tom: He changed it only in the sense that He made visible what had always been true. God did not begin to forgive or love when Christ died, but God's love and forgiveness is what led Him to give His Son at infinite cost, at the risk of failure and eternal loss, for us. God is no better after Christ's death than He was before. He loves no more, and forgives no more. In Christ, we see the Father.

R: He became the representative of our race, instead of Satan. This is what He did. There is no justification involved in this. Justification is a declaration in the heavenly tribunal that the person is righteous.

Tom: That's not how it's used in Romans 5:18. As Ellen White put it, "to the death of Christ, we owe even this earthly life." If you want to come up with a different name for the concept, go ahead. The concept's the important thing.

The important idea to recognize is that Christ accomplished something for every human being. Not just potentially, but in actually fact. He is the Savior of every man, especially of those who believe. Christ saved the world (EGW says this several times). If not for Him, and His sacrifice, we would be dead. Thus we owe our physical existence to Him.

The phrases I've used to express this concept are "Corporate justification" "Legal justification" and "Temporary Universal Justification". The idea is that God treats us, for a time, not as we deserve, but as Christ deserves. He does this because He is gracious, and to give us an opportunity to become a member of His family forever.

Old Tom: The thing to keep in mind is the difference between the corporate and the individual. Corporately, we all have favor. Individually we experience favor when we believe. The same thing applies to forgiveness, justification, pardon, salvation -- all of these words. In Christ *all* men have these things.

R: Some have favor but don't have favor? God is not contradictory. BTW, I don’t believe in corporate forgiveness, justification, pardon, or salvation.

Tom: Whether we believe something has no bearing on whether it's true or not. Surely you believe we owe our physical existence to the death of Christ, right? The whole human race? What would you like to call this concept?

Here's proof that pardon is both corporate and individual. When Christ prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," did God answer that prayer? Yes, He did. Of course. That's a corporate pardon. Yet if we do not individually repent, we will no individually experience pardon, and will be lost.

Old Tom: It is the sin which causes suffering and death.

R: The more hardened the sinner, the less able he is to suffer for his sin.

Tom: Why?

R: Satan knows the whole truth; God won’t reveal anything new to him at the last great day.

Tom: Not true. Satan knows lies. He believes his lies.

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Unselfishness, the principle of God's kingdom, is the principle that Satan hates; its very existence he denies. From the beginning of the great controversy he has endeavored to prove God's principles of action to be selfish, and he deals in the same way with all who serve God. To disprove Satan's claim is the work of Christ and of all who bear His name. (Ed 154)

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At the judgement Satan will know that he is wrong, as God's goodness will be fully revealed to him.

R: Yet he will suffer more than anyone else, because God will make him capable of seeing how greatly he dishonored His Creator.

Tom: Right. That's what will cause his suffering. Although it's not that God "makes" him capable in some forceful or arbitrary way. He simply reveals the truth to him.

R: God must deliberately make sinners capable of comprehending the sinfulness of sin before they are able to suffer for sin.

Tom: What are you saying? "Deliberately make sinners capable of comprehending the sinfulness of sin"? God made them that way at creation. He gave them consciences. For the same reason that people are able to recognize God's goodness they are able to recognize sin. God made them that way. He doesn't do something to arbitrarily make them feel pain. God is not that way! There is no cruelty or arbitrariness in God. God is love, and God created us with the capacity to give and receive love. That was the purpose for which we were created. If we live contrary to God's purpose, and choose to live according to Satan's invention -- the principle of selfishness -- then we will suffer and die. Not because God does something to torture us or inflice pain upon, but because this is what selfishness does to our consciences. When we confront truth, it's very painful. You can't have the capacity for love and appreciating love without the consequence of pain and suffering when love is rejected.

R: At the last great day, it is not sin itself, but an understanding of the sinfulness of sin, of how offensive sin is to God, which causes suffering and death;

Tom: Of course. Sin is not a thing or an entity which can cause pain or suffering, any more than the law is. Pain happens in the mind. When the mind becomes aware of the truth, the mind that is hardened by selfishness feel pain. This is right.

R: IOW, it is not sin, but the wrath of God, which causes the death of the sinner.

Tom: Right, it is God giving the sinner up to the consequences of sin which causes him pain. It is the light of the glory of God which does this; that is, God's goodness and kindness; the revelation of the truth of His character, and the revelation of the truth of the sinner. God's wrath.

“At the last great day, when all will be rewarded or punished according to their obedience or disobedience, the cross of Calvary will appear plainly before those standing before the Judge of all the earth to receive sentence for eternity. They are made capable of comprehending something of the love that God has expressed for fallen human beings. They see how greatly he has been dishonored by those who have continued in transgression, choosing sides with Satan, and showing contempt for the law of Jehovah. They see that obedience to this law would have brought them life and health, prosperity and eternal good.” {RH, March 15, 1906}

Old Tom: Selfishness is suicidal, but if God had allowed Satan to die immediately, his death would have been misunderstood as God's killing him, and the evil seed of sin would have remained.

R: Satan would never commit suicide, therefore God would have to remove his life, which wouldn’t have been well understood by the inhabitants of the universe at the time.

Tom: That's not what DA 764 says. It says the cut themselves off from the source of life, and thus die. This is what suicide is. Cutting yourself off from life. Then it says that God could not all them to suffer "the inevitable consequences of sin" because they would have misinterpreted that even. They would have thought God was killing them, that there death was an act of power from God.

You know it occurs to me how you have been understanding this sentence all this time:

"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God." You have been understanding this as if it were saying "It is an act of power, but not an arbitrary one, because God exercizes it in justice." But the word "arbitrary" is not speaking of injustice. It's speaking of connection. That is, if the wicked were to die only because God did something to them to make them die, then that would not be the inevitable result of sin, but an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. In order to show that death is not due to an act of arbitrary power on the part of God (i.e. it is not disconnected from sin, but due to God's doing something -- God is showing this idea is not correct) He gave His Son that we might see what death is. In Christ we see the truth. We see the true nature of sin and death.

After the watching universe saw this, *then* they were able to understand that the death of the wicked was not due to an arbitrary act of power on the part of God (this is why this fact is recorded in the chapter called "It is Finished" which is discussing what Christ accomplished by His death.") Now, after Christ died, now they could see that death is the inevitable consequence of sin and accept the death of the wicked for what it is -- due to sin, and not God (except that sin cannot abide in His presence, because of God's goodness). That is, sin and God's agape cause pain, suffering and death, just as we see in Christ's death.

If we want to understand the death of the wicked, we must understand Christ's death. The principles of the death of the wicked and the atonement are identical. No arbitrariness (that is, disconnected events; God's doing things is a disconnected fashion)

R: Sin is not suicidal.

Tom: Sin is suicidal. That's what God has been trying to say to us. "The soul that sin shall die." "The wages of sin is death." "The sting of death is sin." "They that hate Me love death." "For to be carnally minded is death." These are all saying the same thing. Sin results in death. Not that God will torture and kill us if we do not obey Him. This view of God is tragic.

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We dishonor God when we think of him only as a judge ready to pass sentence upon us, and forget that he is a loving Father. The whole spiritual life is molded by our conceptions of God; and if we cherish erroneous views of his character, our souls will sustain injury. (RH 1/14/90)

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R: If God does not remove Satan’s life, he will continue to exist for ever and ever and ever.

Tom: Noone is created with immortality. No one could exist for a moment except God gives him life. I couldn't find an SOP statement about this, but there are many. They say things like we couldn't exist for a moment but for the sustaining power of God.

Life is of God. Separated from God, nothing can live. There is no life apart from God. God does not need to kill someone for them not to live; simply not making them live is enough for them to die. Life is not something we have of ourselves.

Old Tom: It really doesn't matter what Lucifer declares. He's a liar. God proved his accusations false, because no transgressors were debarred from God's favor. This is demonstrated by the fact that He solved the world that He gave every one of them His Son. What greater display of favor than this could there be?

R: You repeat constantly that Satan is a liar.

Tom: Yes, because this is an important point. Satan is clever, and will make arguments which are specious, in order to distract and confuse us. This is exactly what he did with Eve. We need to take heed of Christ's words, which are truth unmixed with guile.

R: He is a liar but he is not a fool. He won’t invent something which nobody will believe.
He always mixes truth with error.

Tom: This is my point. This is why we should be careful with his arguments. They are designed to decieve and mislead.

R: The correct part here is that transgressors were debarred from God’s favor.

Tom: If they were debarred from God's favor, why did God give His Son in their behalf? Oh that I were thus debarred from everyone's favor! Then I would be the richest person on earth, because everyone would give everything they had to me, as God has given everything He has to us.

R: The wrong part is that this condition must exist for ever, for God found a solution for it. Satan himself had been debarred forever from God’s favor:

“After Satan was shut out of heaven... he and his followers repented, wept and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But no, their sin, their hate, their envy and jealousy, had been so great that God could not blot it out. It must remain to receive its final punishment. When Satan became fully conscious that there was no possibility of his being brought again into favor with God, then his malice and hatred began to be manifest.” {1SG 18, 19}

As to humanity, however, God found a way, through the death of Christ, to restore it to His favor:

“Christ clothed His divinity with humanity, and by His death made it possible for man to be restored to the favor that Adam lost. {5MR 250}

However, this is possible only for those who accept Christ. Salvation and forgiveness are provisional, not effective, for the whole world:

“Christ manifested his interest in the salvation of every soul. When he endured the death of the cross, he made provision for the pardon of every soul, and to those who would obey his commandments, he promised eternal happiness in his kingdom. How is it that so few respond to this love?” {ST, January 5, 1891}

“There is no need for the world to be as it is today--filled with war and bloodshed, violence and crime. Christ has made provision for the salvation of every soul. He gave his life for the life of the world, and John declares, ‘As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.’ This is the gift of heaven to all who truly believe. In view of these things, how can men and women choose to receive the father of lies, and to cherish his spirit?” {RH, June 15, 1905}

Tom: One needs to understand there are two aspects to this. One from man's side, and one from God's. You're only looking at man's side. From God's side we have statements like this:

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He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God. (1SM 243)

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Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. (DA 660)

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The principle is that we live because of Christ's death. Everyone is benefited by that death.

R: But because salvation is possible for all, all must have the opportunity to accept it, thus everybody received another trial through Christ’s sacrifice. The benefits in which all are included, however, are limited to this temporal life.

Tom: Of course they're limited to this life. Noone's saying otherwise. An important point is that salvation is not just made possible, but is actually *given* to every person. The gift must actually be rejected for a person to be lost, because Christ is given to every person.

R: About Christ’s prayer:

“Some of them would yet see their sin, and repent, and be converted. Some by their impenitence would make it an impossibility for the prayer of Christ to be answered for them” (DA 745).

Tom: Right. This is from man's side. However forgiveness has two sides. There is the side of the forgiver and the forgiven. If someone does you harm, you may forgive them. However, if they do not accept your forgivenss, they remain unforgiven. But from your point of view, you have forgiven them.

God has forgiven us. The evidence of this is the fact that we are alive. The wages of sin is death, and if God had not forgiven us, we would be dead. This is the principles explained in FW 21, 22. The only reason we are alive, it explains there, is because God so loved the world that He gave His Son.

God's disposition is one based on agape. God forgives and loves, regardless of whether we love or forgive back. However, if we harden our hearts against God, and refuse to accept His love and forgiveness, we will die, because the wages of sin is death.

Sin IS suicidal!

Hate,lust,robbery,murder, and all breakers of the Commandments are "choosing" death, now and at the Judgment.

Please anyone: show me where the opposite of sin, righteousness, could possibly be suicidal!

Tom,

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R: The more hardened the sinner, the less able he is to suffer for his sin.
Tom: Why?

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Tom, I thought this was self-evident. Everywhere around us we see people loving sin and exalting sin. If they don’t let the Spirit of God convince them of sin, how can they possibly understand the sinfulness of sin?

"We can seldom see our sins in the grievous light that God can. Many have habituated themselves to pursue a course of sin, and their hearts harden, under the influence of the power of Satan." {AG 264}

"The more nearly they [Christians] resemble Christ, the more they lament their unlikeness to Him; for their consciences are sensitive, and they regard sin more as God regards it". {NL 57}

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Tom: Not true. Satan knows lies. He believes his lies. ... At the judgement Satan will know that he is wrong, as God's goodness will be fully revealed to him.

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How can this be so? If God’s goodness hadn’t been fully revealed to Satan, there would have been hope for him:

"But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final."{DA 761}

He fully knew God’s goodness and He fully knew truth, but chose to deny it:

"The Lord saw the use that Satan was making of his power, and he set before him truth in contrast with falsehood. .... He chose to deny truth, to take refuge in misstatements and fraud." {18MR 362}

He knew the truth, but did not stand in the truth (John 8:44).

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God made them that way at creation. He gave them consciences.

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The Bible speaks about sinners “whose consciences are seared” (1 Tim. 4:2), and of course this is the condition of all those who resist the Spirit of God. Tom, willfull sinners are not and cannot be sensitive to sin.

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That is, if the wicked were to die only because God did something to them to make them die, then that would not be the inevitable result of sin, but an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.

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Look, the fact is that God will deliberately raise the wicked, will deliberately veil His glory for a time until they face judgment, and then will deliberately unveil it, knowing that by this act they will die. I would never define this as suicide, but you are entitled to your opinion. This is an act of power on the part of God, but not arbitrary power.

My dictionary defines arbitrary as:
1. arrived at without allowing argument or objection;
2. resulting from personal inclination entirely;
3. decided by chance or whim;
4. prejudiced, not based on reasoned examination;
5. absolute, despotic.

This act of God does not fall in any of the above definitions. It is motivated by love and done for the good of all His creatures, including the wicked, who lead a miserable existence.

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God does not need to kill someone for them not to live; simply not making them live is enough for them to die. Life is not something we have of ourselves.

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Of course the life of every creature is sustained by God. But not making live is the same as killing. The person who shots another is killing, but the person who cuts the oxygen supply of another is also killing, no matter how you try to slice it. The key point is that removing life can be an act of mercy. How many times we, in mercy, sacrifice our pets when they are suffering too much? Wouldn’t it be cruel to let them continue living under these circumstances, however much we love them?

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Tom: If they were debarred from God's favor, why did God give His Son in their behalf?

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To make possible for them to be restored to His favor! This is exactly what Ellen White says.

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Tom: One needs to understand there are two aspects to this. One from man's side, and one from God's. You're only looking at man's side. From God's side we have statements like this...

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Tom, you are complicating what is simple. The human race had another trial, a second probation, not through any “corporate justification”, but through the plan of redemption. What happened was simply this:

"After the fall Christ became Adam's instructor. He acted in God's stead toward humanity, saving the race from immediate death. He took upon him the office of mediator. Adam and Eve were given a probation in which to return to their allegiance, and in this plan all their posterity were embraced." {CC 20}

Infinite wisdom devised the plan of redemption, which places the race on a second probation by giving them another trial. {3T 484}

Adam should have died instantly, But Christ proposed to die in his place (the plan of redemption), so he was granted a second probation and in this plan all his posterity was embraced. That’s why every human being owes his life to Christ.

Have a happy sabbath!

Tom,

Old R: The more hardened the sinner, the less able he is to suffer for his sin.

Old Tom: Why?

R: Tom, I thought this was self-evident. Everywhere around us we see people loving sin and exalting sin. If they don’t let the Spirit of God convince them of sin, how can they possibly understand the sinfulness of sin?

"We can seldom see our sins in the grievous light that God can. Many have habituated themselves to pursue a course of sin, and their hearts harden, under the influence of the power of Satan." {AG 264}

"The more nearly they [Christians] resemble Christ, the more they lament their unlikeness to Him; for their consciences are sensitive, and they regard sin more as God regards it". {NL 57}

Tom: So those who have most hardened their hearts against God will sin the least, since they have the least capacity to suffer for sin?

Old Tom: Not true. Satan knows lies. He believes his lies. ... At the judgement Satan will know that he is wrong, as God's goodness will be fully revealed to him.

R: How can this be so?

Tom: The explanation of this is in the quote I provided, which said, "Unselfishness, the principle of God's kingdom, is the principle that Satan hates; [u]its very existence he denies.[/u] From the beginning of the great controversy he has endeavored to prove God's principles of action to be selfish, and he deals in the same way with all who serve God."

The fact that Satan denies that unselfishness exists (by the way, how would you say "unselfishness" in Portugues? "abneganacao" "ser deinteresado" "o principio de negar o eu" comes to mind, but none seem to satisfactory) shows that he believes his lies, which was the point I was making.

R: If God’s goodness hadn’t been fully revealed to Satan, there would have been hope for him:

"But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final."{DA 761}

Tom: This quote shows the principle that it was possible for man to be saved by revealing truth to him. Satan knew the truth about God, so God's revealing it to him would not help him. It would help man, however, so for man there is remission of sin in the shedding of blood (although not for angels).

However, sin is so deceitful that even those who go into it knowing the truth about God will be deceived by it. Satan is proof positive of this.

Sin is an insideous thing. It is deadly. It confuses the mind, and leads one to have false ideas about God. What better example of this principle is there than Satan? He knew the truth about God, and was in the very presence of God, yet sin confused his mind, so that now he denies the very existence of unselfishness. Think about that! This is how powerful sin is, and shows our great need to be delivered from it.

R: He fully knew God’s goodness and He fully knew truth, but chose to deny it:

"The Lord saw the use that Satan was making of his power, and he set before him truth in contrast with falsehood. .... He chose to deny truth, to take refuge in misstatements and fraud." {18MR 362}

He knew the truth, but did not stand in the truth (John 8:44).

quote:God made them that way at creation. He gave them consciences.

The Bible speaks about sinners “whose consciences are seared” (1 Tim. 4:2), and of course this is the condition of all those who resist the Spirit of God. Tom, willfull sinners are not and cannot be sensitive to sin.

Tom: This doesn't mean that sin cannot cause them suffering, does it?

Old Tom: That is, if the wicked were to die only because God did something to them to make them die, then that would not be the inevitable result of sin, but an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.

R: Look, the fact is that God will deliberately raise the wicked, will deliberately veil His glory for a time until they face judgment, and then will deliberately unveil it, knowing that by this act they will die.

Tom: How else would the wicked know the truth if God did not resurrect them? Not only the wicked are involved in the judgment, but others as well. The resurrection is the only way the truth can be made known. You can be sure that God is not resurrecting them in order to inflict pain on them. God is not like that. He would make them happy, if He could (GC 541 or 542). God still loves them. It is the truth of His character that causes them pain, suffering and death. This is unavoidable.

R: I would never define this as suicide, but you are entitled to your opinion. This is an act of power on the part of God, but not arbitrary power.

Tom: It's not an act of power on the part of God, but an act of choice on the part of the wicked. It's the glory of God that destroys the wicked, not God's power. This is EGW's whole point:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (GC 764)

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R: My dictionary defines arbitrary as:
1. arrived at without allowing argument or objection;
2. resulting from personal inclination entirely;
3. decided by chance or whim;
4. prejudiced, not based on reasoned examination;
5. absolute, despotic.

This act of God does not fall in any of the above definitions.

Tom: If the way you were looking at things were correct, it would follow under 2, which is the point I've been trying to make. If sin is not really deadly, and only has effect because God tortures and kills people who do it, then the death of the wicked is entirely due to the personal inclination of God. This is exactly what the definition of arbitrary is.

R: It is motivated by love and done for the good of all His creatures, including the wicked, who lead a miserable existence.

Tom: The motivation is not the issue. The causation is. If it is not sin which causes death, but rather God, than there is no organic relationship between sin and death. Sin would, in this case, only cause death because God doesn't like it and kills people who does it. In this case, it is God which causes death, not sin.

Old Tom: God does not need to kill someone for them not to live; simply not making them live is enough for them to die. Life is not something we have of ourselves.

R: Of course the life of every creature is sustained by God. But not making live is the same as killing.

Tom: No!!! (Add many more). It's not at all the same! It's totally different.

Here's an example. Let's say that I am responsible for you, and you are in a coma which is not reverseable but in great pain. According to medical science, there's no chance you can recover consciousness. I can make the decision to take away a machine which will keep you alive. So I decide to authorize your life support being taken away to end your suffering. That's one thing. Another thing is a take a knife and slit your throat. These are in no way related acts (by the way, I'm not arguing either for or against euthanasia in this illustration).

R: The person who shots another is killing, but the person who cuts the oxygen supply of another is also killing, no matter how you try to slice it. The key point is that removing life can be an act of mercy. How many times we, in mercy, sacrifice our pets when they are suffering too much? Wouldn’t it be cruel to let them continue living under these circumstances, however much we love them?

Old Tom: If they were debarred from God's favor, why did God give His Son in their behalf?

R: To make possible for them to be restored to His favor!

Tom: If they didn't already have His favor, He wouldn't have given His Son for them, would He? The angels proclaimed, "Peace on earth, and 'good will' (i.e. favor) towards man." The gift makes known the favor that man has with God. The gift does not create favor in God's heart for man, but demonstrates the favor man has already had in God's heart. God so loved the world He gave His Son. Christ's sacrifice does nothing for God. God is no more favorable disposed towards man after the sacrifice than before.

R: This is exactly what Ellen White says.

Old Tom: One needs to understand there are two aspects to this. One from man's side, and one from God's. You're only looking at man's side. From God's side we have statements like this...

R: Tom, you are complicating what is simple. The human race had another trial, a second probation, not through any “corporate justification”, but through the plan of redemption. What happened was simply this:

"After the fall Christ became Adam's instructor. He acted in God's stead toward humanity, saving the race from immediate death. He took upon him the office of mediator. Adam and Eve were given a probation in which to return to their allegiance, and in this plan all their posterity were embraced." {CC 20}

Infinite wisdom devised the plan of redemption, which places the race on a second probation by giving them another trial. {3T 484}

Adam should have died instantly, But Christ proposed to die in his place (the plan of redemption), so he was granted a second probation and in this plan all his posterity was embraced. That’s why every human being owes his life to Christ.

Tom: What you're describing in this last paragraph is corporate justification. Apparently you don't like the phrase, so I have invited you to choose another. Wallenkampf uses the phrase "temporary universal justification." The phrase is not the important thing, but the concept.

There's two important concepts to what we have been discussing. The first is:

1) The same thing that gives life to the righteous slays the wicked (the truth about God's character -- DA 108)
2) All mean live physically by the death of Christ, meaning that His sacrifice benefits them, having restored them (past tense -- making it clear it has nothing to do with them, since is has already been accomplished before they can act) to favor with God.

R: Have a happy sabbath!

Tom: Thank you. We visited family over the week-end. Went to a wedding.

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Tom: So those who have most hardened their hearts against God will sin the least, since they have the least capacity to suffer for sin?

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Tom, what I mean is mental suffering for sin - to feel anguish for sin. They love sin and exalt sin. Hardened sinners have their consciences seared; they are incapable of understanding the sinfulness of sin. But when the Judge casts upon them “one penetrating, convicting glance, ... every deed, every transaction of life, will be vividly impressed upon the memory of the wrongdoer.” Then “the consequences to result to himself will draw from each an acknowledgment of his sin. It will be forced from the soul by an awful sense of condemnation and a fearful looking for of judgment” (PP 498).

2- God’s goodness won’t be revealed to Satan. He already knows it. It has been revealed to him as to no one else. He denies that unselfishness exists for a simple reason: how could he admit that God is unselfish and still continue to attack God? This admission would defeat his very purpose. He chose to deny truth but he knows very well what truth is. How can he succeed, though, if he admits that the truth is with God and that he is lying?

3- Of course this act of God does not result from personal inclination. There has been a judgment before this and the wicked are condemned by unanimity. If the whole universe is in agreement with God about the fate of the wicked, how can this be called an act resulting from personal inclination?
Besides you know that nobody here is saying that God tortures and kills people despotically or by whim. God is forced to remove the life of incorrigible rebels because sin is an evil ruinous to the whole universe and God must put an end to it. It would be cruel to keep sinners alive - cruel to the sinners themselves and cruel to the universe.

4- God’s favor and God’s love are two different things. God’s favor means God’s approval. To not enjoy the approval of God means to be under His condemnation. And God cannot approve of, but must condemn, those who are in sin.

P.S. Yes, the Portuguese word for unselfishness is abnegacao [abnegation - used in English with a different meaning], which would mean to deny self (for the good of others); also desprendimento.

Are you in agreement or not with Covenant Theology?
Covenant Theology grows out of the soil of the Reformed doctrine of federal representation and is based on the biblical teaching about the two Adams whose responses under covenant probation are imputed to those they represent.

God entered into a covenant with Adam, the basis of which was His law. In this covenant:
_ the condition was perfect obedience
_ the promise was eternal life
_ the penalty for transgression was exposure to the wrath of God (which inevitably meant death).

Although Adam enjoyed God’s favor because he had no sin, yet he was to obey, if he would enjoy eternal life. Thus he must have:
1) not only a negative righteousness - he was not guilty of anything; but also
2) a positive righteousness - he must obey that he might inherit eternal life

When he sinned,
1) he became guilty of transgression, forfeited God’s favor and became subject to the penalty
2) he failed to obey positively, failed to overcome the devil, and thus forfeited eternal life.

Therefore, in the covenant of grace, the representative of humanity, the second Adam, must
1) by satisfying the penalty, clear the slate and reinstate us in God’s favor _ Adam’s original condition. (This is called Christ’s passive obedience.)
2) accomplish the probationary assignment of overcoming the devil and presenting a perfect obedience, earning for us eternal life _ God’s promised reward. (This is called Christ’s active obedience.)

Thus, for man to be justified, he must have:
1) the not imputation of sin (passive righteousness), placing him in a condition as if he had never transgressed, that the penalty may be remitted
2) a reckoning of righteousness (active righteousness), granting him eternal life

Ellen White clearly agrees with Covenant Theology. Just some quotes that show this (there are many more):

“We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression. Jesus regained heaven for man by bearing the test that Adam failed to endure; for He obeyed the law perfectly, and all who have a right conception of the plan of redemption will see that they cannot be saved while in transgression of God's holy precepts.” {FW 88}

“As Adam lost the gift of life and immortality by his disobedience, so all born of Adam forfeit this gift. That one transgression opened the flood-gates of woe upon our world. Adam had no power in himself to redeem the past, or to win back the gifts bestowed by Christ. But by his incarnation, Christ was made fully competent to place man where he would no longer be an outcast, excluded from the tree of life. Christ himself bore the penalty of sin, that he might bring life and immortality to light.” (ST June 17, 1897)

"As representative of the fallen race, Christ passed over the same ground on which Adam stumbled and fell. By a life of perfect obedience to God's law, Christ redeemed man from the penalty of Adam's disgraceful fall. ... Bearing the penalty of the law, He gives the sinner another chance, a second trial. He opens a way whereby the sinner can be reinstated in God's favor. Christ bears the penalty of man's past transgressions, and by imparting to man His righteousness, makes it possible for man to keep God's holy law" (MS 126, 1901).

P.S. Adam should have died immediately, but this didn’t happen because just after his sin God explained to him the plan of salvation (Gen. 3:15) and he accepted it. He was justified just after he had sinned. His second chance involved an immediate justification. However, this doesn’t happen with his posterity, for men must first have a knowledge of the plan of salvation before accepting it; thus their second chance involves a lifetime of opportunity. But they are reinstated to God’s favor only when they are justified by faith. At least this is how I see it.

[edited to correct spelling]

[ May 23, 2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]