OK. Let me see if I can figure out how to get this part through. Got it! This was hard.


R:
"Was this an idea of Christ alone? That is, is the idea that you are presenting that God the Father was ready to wipe out Adam and Eve, but fortunately for mankind Christ perked up and said, "Wait a minute! I've got an idea! Don't kill them, kill Me instead!" Is this the idea?" (quote from Tom)

No, of course the idea is not that. When I say God, I mean the Godhead. The Godhead was offended by man’s sin, thus the wrath of the Godhead came upon man because of sin. Because God [the three persons] is just, He had to manifest His wrath against sin, which would kill man; but because He is merciful, he wished to forgive and spare man. This dilemma was resolved because one of the members of the Godhead proposed to receive in Himself the wrath against sin. Thus the Godhead could punish sin and be enabled to forgive.


T: This presents the picture that man must be saved from God's wrath, and not sin. It also presents the picture that man can be saved from God's wrath by one member of the Godhead exercising His wrath upon another member. How does this solve the real problem, which is sin in the human heart? Also, what was the role of the Holy Spirit? Was He doling out wrath, like the Father, or absorbing it like the Son? (or perhaps He was neutral?)

Also when you say God was enabled to forive man by Christ's sacrifice, do you mean to suggest that before Christ's death God did not forgive sin?

1-

quote:

---

God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their sin. The many Bible verses I quote all illustrate this. The destruction of Jerusalem illustrates this.

---

There are many Bible verses and SOP quotes which clearly show God’s wrath as an active intervention of God, but these you refuse to consider or to discuss.

When Christ drove out the money-changers from the temple, He was not giving them over to the result of their sin. He was actively showing His wrath, in a way very similar to what will happen at the day of judgment. These quotes are taken from DA chap. 16:

“As He beholds the scene, indignation, authority, and power are expressed in His countenance.”
“With a zeal and severity He has never before manifested, He overthrows the tables of the money-changers.”
“Even the disciples tremble. They are awestruck by the words and
manner of Jesus, so unlike His usual demeanor.”

And this quote is from DA chap. 65, “The Temple Cleansed Again”:
“The displeasure of His countenance seemed like consuming fire.”

Consider this experience of Ellen White:

“I did not realize that I was unfaithful in thus questioning and doubting, and did not see the danger and sin of such a course, until in vision I was taken into the presence of Jesus. He looked upon me with a frown, and turned His face from me. It is not possible to describe the terror and agony I then felt. I fell upon my face before Him, but had no power to utter a word. Oh, how I longed to be covered and hid from that dreadful frown! Then could I realize, in some degree, what the feelings of the lost will be...” {CET 79}

Of course God does not treat the righteous and the wicked in exactly the same way. It is the severity and displeasure of God’s countenance which will cause the anguish of the wicked. But this is not in vengeance. The severity which God manifests is against sin. When God looks at the wicked, He sees sin, and cannot but manifest displeasure towards it. On the other hand, when God looks at the righteous, He sees His holiness reflected in them, and cannot but manifest pleasure towards it. His character, however, is the same in both cases.

2-

quote:

---

How is it that God assumed the character of Judge? By permitting "His Son to be delivered up for our offenses"!

---

How is it that God assumed the character of a judge? Divesting Himself of the endearing qualities of a father.

3-

quote:

---

My point was that if the only reason the wicked die is because God kills them, and is not related to sin itself (i.e. to a law, or principle, that sin causes death), then that is arbitrary

---

Tom, the wicked die because of their sin, in the same way that a criminal condemned to death dies because of his crime.

4- I see no difference between extermination, destruction, eradication and extinction. It’s all the same to me.

5-

quote:

---

The context of the statement that God should not be looked at as an executioner is given in the statement in which it is found...

---

The point is: What does the phrase “God is not an executioner” mean? It certainly does not mean that God does not executes judgment against the transgressors of His law.

6-

quote:

---

God treats the wicked as if they were righteous

---

Physical blessings have nothing to do with spiritual status. God "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matt. 5:45), but this is light-years away from saying that God declared the wicked righteous in the heavenly tribunal, which is the meaning of “legal justification”.

Roseangela:

Could you address Daryl's comment from a few days ago about the hardening of Pharoah's heart being written as if God did it? And the apparent contridiction about Saul's suicide or God's murdering him?

Also my questions of several days ago got buried:

Where did the Israelites get weapons in the wilderness? Was this a miracle from God in order for them to slay their enemies?

Ikan,

The Bible sometimes pictures God as doing that which He permits, but you will notice that the Bible itself makes the subject clear in parallel passages. Besides, we have perfect enlightenment about these incidents through the SOP. And Ellen White shows in clear words when God behaved passively and when He behaved actively. We have only to pay attention to what she says.
Where the israelites got their weapons we don’t know; some speculate they picked up some of the weapons of the Egyptian army that the waves brought to shore. But what exactly is your point here?
Speaking about the Egyptian army, this brings another point for discussion. Who killed them?

“Then the LORD said to Moses, ‘Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the water may come back upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.’ So Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to its wonted flow when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled into it, and the LORD routed the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. The waters returned and covered the chariots and the horsemen and all the host of Pharaoh that had followed them into the sea; not so much as one of them remained.”

Old Tom:God's wrath is His giving people over to the result of their sin. The many Bible verses I quote all illustrate this. The destruction of Jerusalem illustrates this.

R: There are many Bible verses and SOP quotes which clearly show God’s wrath as an active intervention of God, but these you refuse to consider or to discuss.

T: I have been considering and discussing them throughout. There are two types of statements, both in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophesy, and it seems to me three ways to attempt to reconcile them. One set of statements presents sin as the enemy which destroys, and God's wrath as giving people over to that power. Another set of statements presents God as the One who destroys, and God's wrath as His employing that destructive power. The way ways of dealing with these are:

1) Interpret the former in terms of the latter. This appears to me to be what Mike does. That is, all the statements really mean that God is destroying, but some of them *appear* to make God passive. But in reality, God is always active.

2) Interpret both as true. Sin destroys, and God destroys. Sometimes one, and sometimes the other. This is your approach.

3) Interpret the latter in terms of the former. God's wrath is always God's giving sinners over to the result of their choice, even though it may *appear* that God is active in their destruction.

I should reiterate, for the sake of clarity, that we have been discussing the destruction of the wicked in the judgment. The Spirit of Prophesy spends a whole chapter explaining how the wrath of God was His giving Jerusalem over to the result of their choice. She explicitly states that this: "Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.

quote:

---

The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty....

Let men beware lest they neglect the lesson conveyed to them in the words of Christ. As He warned His disciples of Jerusalem's destruction, giving them a sign of the approaching ruin, that they might make their escape; so He has warned the world of the day of final destruction and has given them tokens of its approach, that all who will may flee from the wrath to come. (GC 36, 37)

---

According the Spirit of Prophesy, there is no better example to understand the destruction of the wicked than the destruction of Jerusalem. This is the most decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin ever given. Yet what was it? How was God's wrath poured out?

quote:

---

Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 35)

---

R: When Christ drove out the money-changers from the temple, He was not giving them over to the result of their sin. He was actively showing His wrath, in a way very similar to what will happen at the day of judgment. These quotes are taken from DA chap. 16:

“As He beholds the scene, indignation, authority, and power are expressed in His countenance.”
“With a zeal and severity He has never before manifested, He overthrows the tables of the money-changers.”
“Even the disciples tremble. They are awestruck by the words and
manner of Jesus, so unlike His usual demeanor.”

And this quote is from DA chap. 65, “The Temple Cleansed Again”:
“The displeasure of His countenance seemed like consuming fire.”

T: She writes this of the same event:

"Overpowered with terror, the priests and rulers had fled from the temple court, and from the searching glance that read their hearts. In their flight they met others on their way to the temple, and bade them turn back, telling them what they had seen and heard. Christ looked upon the fleeing men with yearning pity for their fear, and their ignorance of what constituted true worship. In this scene He saw symbolized the dispersion of the whole Jewish nation for their wickedness and impenitence. (DA 162)"

The underlined portion makes two points. First of all, Christ looked at the fleeing men with "pity." This gives an idea as to what is in the heart of God as He executes judgement. He was in pity for their fear.

What is it that caused them to fear? It was the same thing that caused Adam and Eve to run an hide. Their sin brought self-condemnation upon them ("I was naked") and caused them to view God in a false light ("I was afraid").

This also describes the scene:

quote:

---

Three years before, the rulers of the temple had been ashamed of their flight before the command of Jesus. They had since wondered at their own fears, and their unquestioning obedience to a single humble
Man. They had felt that it was impossible for their undignified surrender to be repeated. Yet they were now more terrified than before, and in greater haste to obey His command. There were none who dared question His authority. Priests and traders fled from His presence, driving their cattle before them....

Upon entering, they stood transfixed before the wonderful scene. They saw the sick healed, the blind restored to sight, and deaf receive their hearing, and the crippled leap for joy. The children were foremost in the rejoicing. Jesus had healed their maladies; He had clasped them in His arms, received their kisses of grateful affection, and some of them had fallen asleep upon His breast as He was teaching the people. (DA 591, 592)

---

Note that not everybody left the presence of Christ. While the guilty couldn't get away fast enough, those needing healing, and children(!) approached Him.

R:
Consider this experience of Ellen White:

“I did not realize that I was unfaithful in thus questioning and doubting, and did not see the danger and sin of such a course, until in vision I was taken into the presence of Jesus. He looked upon me with a frown, and turned His face from me. It is not possible to describe the terror and agony I then felt. I fell upon my face before Him, but had no power to utter a word. Oh, how I longed to be covered and hid from that dreadful frown! Then could I realize, in some degree, what the feelings of the lost will be...” {CET 79}

Tom: This describes the effects of sin. There is no doubt that those who refuse God's grace will experience terror when they come face to face with God. What is the cause of that terror? It is due to the effect of sin. "Who can dwell with the everlasting burnings?" God is perfect in holiness, and is a consuming fire to sin wherever it is found.

R:
Of course God does not treat the righteous and the wicked in exactly the same way.

T: He is infinitely good to both. That was my point.

R:
It is the severity and displeasure of God’s countenance which will cause the anguish of the wicked. But this is not in vengeance. The severity which God manifests is against sin. When God looks at the wicked, He sees sin, and cannot but manifest displeasure towards it. On the other hand, when God looks at the righteous, He sees His holiness reflected in them, and cannot but manifest pleasure towards it. His character, however, is the same in both cases.

T: When He looks at His children, He sees an individual. The individual may be in need of healing, or may have already been healed, but in whichever case He has infinitely love and compassion for them.

R:
2-

Old Tom: How is it that God assumed the character of Judge? By permitting "His Son to be delivered up for our offenses"!

R: How is it that God assumed the character of a judge? Divesting Himself of the endearing qualities of a father.

Tom: This is how God is *perceived* by those who are experiencing the effects of sin. But God does not cease to be our Father! He continues to loves us infinitely, and the loss of any of us causes Him immeasurable pain and loss.

quote:

---

It is Satan's work to fill men's hearts with doubt. He leads them to look upon God as a stern judge. (DA 356)

Nothing can hurt your own soul more than to entertain such thoughts of our heavenly Father. Our whole spiritual life will catch a tone of hopelessness from such conceptions of God. They discourage all effort to seek God or to serve Him. We must not think of God only as a judge ready to pronounce sentence against us. He hates sin; but from love to sinners He gave Himself, in the person of Christ, that all who would might be saved and have eternal blessedness in the kingdom of glory. (5T 633)

---

R:
3-

Old Tom:My point was that if the only reason the wicked die is because God kills them, and is not related to sin itself (i.e. to a law, or principle, that sin causes death), then that is arbitrary.

R: Tom, the wicked die because of their sin, in the same way that a criminal condemned to death dies because of his crime.

T: No, it's very different. The law of God is everywhere, and the presence of God is everywhere. It requires the grace of God to allow any of us to even physically exist during our temporal lives here. In the judgement, this grace will not be continued, and those who have rejected God's grace will stand face to face before God without a mediator.

R:
4- I see no difference between extermination, destruction, eradication and extinction. It’s all the same to me.

T: It is the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, which causes the destruction of the wicked. Destruction is a more general term than extermination. If I drop a glass, for example, that can lead to its destruction, but I would hardly say that I exterminated the glass.

R:
5-

Old Tom:The context of the statement that God should not be looked at as an executioner is given in the statement in which it is found...

R:
The point is: What does the phrase “God is not an executioner” mean? It certainly does not mean that God does not executes judgment against the transgressors of His law.

Tom: As I pointed out, the context of the statement can be found in the quote itself. I quoted it. Here it is again:

quote:

---

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 36)

---

There is no doubt that God is executing judgment, but how does He do so? He "leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner.

R:
6-

Old Tom:God treats the wicked as if they were righteous.

R:
Physical blessings have nothing to do with spiritual status. God "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matt. 5:45), but this is light-years away from saying that God declared the wicked righteous in the heavenly tribunal, which is the meaning of “legal justification”.

T: You are ascribing language to me which I have not used. I have quoted from Scripture and the Spirit of Prophesy. I'll repeat:

quote:

---

He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.(1 SM 343)

---

quote:

---

Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. The cross of Calvary is stamped on every loaf. It is reflected in every water spring. All this Christ has taught in appointing the emblems of His great sacrifice.(DA 660)

---

The point in these passages is that even the unrighteous owe their physical existence to the death of Christ. So His sacrifice actually benefits them, if they choose to reject His grace. I have quoted a number of Scripture texts which present the same theme (Rom. 5:18; 2 Cor. 5:14, 19; 1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10; Isa. 44:22 are a couple that come to mind).

The phrases I have heard to describe this concept are "legal justification" "corporate justification" and "temporary universal justification". If you don't like these phrases, that's fine, you can invent your own. But the important point is the concept that the sacrifice of Christ actually benefits all, whether they accept Him as their personal savior or not. Every person lives physically because of Christ's work; He "restored the whole race of men to favor with God."

Very clear Tom, thank you, especially for this part (please pay attention R.

1) Interpret the former in terms of the latter. This appears to me to be what Mike does. That is, all the statements really mean that God is destroying, but some of them *appear* to make God passive. But in reality, God is always active.

2) Interpret both as true. Sin destroys, and God destroys. Sometimes one, and sometimes the other. This is your approach.

3) Interpret the latter in terms of the former. God's wrath is always God's giving sinners over to the result of their choice, even though it may *appear* that God is active in their destruction.


The #3 stance is mine as well, and the angry defense by some Christians (not you Roseangela: you've been quite civil and objective, on the whole)of a bloody Creator's portrayal once He gets ticked off enough only proves that we become what we invision God to be like. Angry Leader=angry followers. Note the record of the 1260 year Roman Church and how they treated their fellow men because they saw God as a they saw earthly kings and popes.

I for one do not believe in the bi-polar God, one who breaks His own Commandments because He could.

Old Tom:Interpret both as true. Sin destroys, and God destroys. Sometimes one, and sometimes the other. This is your approach.

R: I wouldn’t describe it this way. I would say that sin is always the cause, and destruction always the consequence. Besides, destruction is always the own choice of those involved. This destruction, however, may be either caused or permitted by God.

T: Ok, thanks for the clarification. Your approach would be that sometimes sin is the cause of destruction, and sometimes God is the cause of destruction. That would be a better way of putting it than sin destroys or God destroys. Is that right? This seems to me to be saying the same thing, but if you see a distinction, I'll be glad to use your wording.

Old Tom: According the Spirit of Prophesy, there is no better example to understand the destruction of the wicked than the destruction of Jerusalem.

R: If you read the whole chapter, you will see that Ellen White is comparing the destruction of Jerusalem with the results of sin that the wicked reap on this earth for having yielded to Satan’s control.

T: I don't think the distinction you can make is viable. First of all, you will see that she speaks of the same principles that the closing paragraphs of "It Is Finished" uses of, which is dealing with the judgement of the wicked. For example, she writes:

"By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. (GC 37)"

In DA 764 she writes: "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)"

This is saying the same thing. Secondly she writes, "The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty (GC 36)."

She is describing a principle which applies to "all." This can only have the final judgement in mind, as on this earth "all" do not receive the results of their sin. Not even close. It's only at the judgement that the retribution of sin occurs.

R:
“The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.” {GC 36.1}

She mentions the “tumults, conflicts, and revolutions”, then mentions the day when the “Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked”, and ends with the second coming. She doesn’t speak of the Day of judgment. As to this Day, however, she says:

“It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, . . . when He bore the wrath of God for a sinful world.” {TMK 64}

Old Tom: Christ looked at the fleeing men with "pity."

R: Yes, God’s hatred is for sin, not for sinners, but it is this hatred for sin which kills sinners.

T: My point here is that God's disposition towards the wicked does not change. He would save them if He could. He has no anger or hatred towards them. He hates their sin because it kills them.

The Spirit of Prophesy says it is the "light of the glory of God" which destroys the wicked, the same thing which gives life to the righteous. I understand that to mean "the truth of God's character" or "the truth of God's goodness." That light is truth seems clear enough to me, and that God's glory is His goodness, His character, is made clear by God Himself who responded to Moses' request for God to display His glory by making His goodness to pass before Moses and by proclaiming His character. It's also worth noting that it is the same thing which gives life to the righteous which slays the wicked. This point is very important. God's hatred of sin does not give life to the righteous.

Old Tom: When He looks at His children, He sees an individual. The individual may be in need of healing, or may have already been healed, but in whichever case He has infinitely love and compassion for them.

R: At the Day of judgment God will manifest His displeasure and hatred toward sin, although His causing the death of His creatures may be extremely painful to Him - that’s why it is called a “strange work”.

T: I'm glad we agree that it's painful to Him. Before you expressed the thought that it was God's glory which caused the fire which caused the death of the wicked. I assume you still think that way. So if we agree that God's glory is His goodness -- His character -- then we have common ground.

Regarding the principle of the lethality of sin, sin is based on the principle of selfishness. Selfishness kills, because it leads one to separate oneself from God, who alone is the source of life. "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life" (DA 764) . This is dealing with the destruction of the wicked.

This principle makes perfect sense. To reject God and choose self only is to choose death, because life comes only from God. It would be like someone who is scuba diving deciding to cut off the lines of support which tie him to the air above.

Old Tom: We must not think of God only as a judge ready to pronounce sentence against us. He hates sin; but from love to sinners He gave Himself, in the person of Christ, that all who would might be saved and have eternal blessedness in the kingdom of glory. (5T 633)

R: Please notice the word “only” in the quotation you provided. At present the most prominent characteristics of God are those of a Father of infinite compassion, but after the close of probation, His most prominent characteristics will be those of a Judge:

T: That is how He will be perceived by those who have rejected His grace. Sin causes us to view God in an unflattering way. However, His true character remains unchanged. He cannot save the sinner, and He cries out in love, "How can I give you up?!" But He has no choice. He must respect the choice of His children, even if it breaks His heart.

The "only" seems to me to be saying "primarily." That is, the point of the paragraph I quoted was not to have some way to be able justifiably view God as a judge, but to point out the danger in viewing Him primarily as judge rather than as Father. If we view God in a way which causes us to be afraid of Him, rather than love Him, terrible things result, as the death of Christ shows.

“[Christ] is soon to cease his work in the heavenly sanctuary. Grace and mercy will then descend from the throne, and justice will take their place. He for whom his people have looked will assume his right,--the office of Supreme Judge.” {RH, January 1, 1889 par. 1}

“The same voice that with patient, loving entreaty invites the sinner to come to Him and find pardon and peace, will in the judgment bid the rejecters of His mercy, ‘Depart from Me, ye cursed.’ Matthew 25:41. In all the Bible, God is represented not only as a tender father but as a righteous judge. Though He delights in showing mercy, and ‘forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,’ yet He ‘will by no means clear the guilty.’ Exodus 34:7.” {PP 469.2}

Old Tom: The phrases I have heard to describe this concept are "legal justification" "corporate justification" and "temporary universal justification". If you don't like these phrases, that's fine, you can invent your own. But the important point is the concept that the sacrifice of Christ actually benefits all, whether they accept Him as their personal savior or not. Every person lives physically because of Christ's work; He "restored the whole race of men to favor with God."

R: It’s not that I don’t like the phrases; it’s that I don’t agree with the concept. The race was subject to God’s wrath in Adam, but is restored to God’s favor in Christ. However, our relationship with Adam is physical, while our relationship with Christ is spiritual. Christ’s sacrifice made provision for a time of probation for man during which he could return to his allegiance to God. This was necessary for the accomplishment of the plan of salvation, and that’s the only reason why all are benefited by it.

T: I was dealing with the physical. The point of the concept is that we owe our physical lives to the death of Christ. That's what "corporate justification" is saying. The cross of Christ benefits all because all are alive physically because of His death.

It's not clear at all to me what you are disagreeing with. You seem to be repeating the same thing I'm saying. Is there anything in the above paragraph (the one right above this one) that you disagree with?