See e.g, RH, November 1, 1850 par. 12 & 2 SM 73.2 in this prior post (#133709) in this thread for the first issue (can’t miss them) and the first section in this recent post #134966 of mine (and my blog link) in regards to the second one.

How does EGW view time-setting?

Seems clear to me that she opposed it in any form from what she says here, along with her statements elsewhere, as exegetically/contextualizingly due. The “rejected [past tense] true prophetic time” statement is just a restatement of the previously mentioned 1843/1844 ending prophetic time. There was indeed a shut door for those who knowingly rejected that light.

The Lord has seen our backslidings, and he has a controversy with his people. Their pride, their selfishness, their opening of the mind to doubt and unbelief, are manifest in his sight, and grieve his heart of love. Many gather darkness about their souls as a garment, and virtually say,"We want not a knowledge of thy way, O God; we choose our own way." These are the things that separate the soul from God. There is in the soul of man an obstacle which he holds there with stubborn persistency, and which interposes between his soul and God. It is unbelief. God gives sufficient evidence, but man, with his unsanctified will, refuses to receive evidence unless it comes in his own way, to favor his own ideas. With a spirit of bravado he cries, "Proof, proof, is what we want," and turns away from the evidence that God gives. He talks doubt, unbelief, sowing the seeds of evil which will spring up and yield their harvest. He is separating his soul farther and farther from God. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 1}

Is it proof that such men need? Is it evidence that is wanting?--No; the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is given to help all such souls who are turning away from positive evidence, and crying, "Proof"! The rich man asked that one might be sent from the dead to warn his brethren, lest they come to the place of torment. "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 2}

Why is it that men do not believe upon sufficient evidence?--Because they do not want to be convinced. They have no disposition to give up their own will for God's will. They are unwilling to acknowledge that they have cherished sinful unbelief in resisting the light that God has given them. They have been hunting for doubts, for pegs upon which to hang their unbelief. They have been ready to accept testimony which is weak and insufficient, testimony which God has not given them in his word, but which pleases them because it agrees with their ideas, and is in harmony with their disposition and will. These souls are in great peril. If they will bow their proud will, and put it on God's side of the question; if they will with humble, contrite hearts seek for the light, believing that there is light for them, then they will see light, because the eye is single to discern the light which comes from God. They will acknowledge the evidence of divine authority. Spiritual truths will shine forth from the divine page. But the heart must be open for the reception of light, for Satan is ever ready to obscure the precious truth which would make them wise unto salvation. If any do not receive it, it will forever remain a mystery of mysteries to them. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 3}

We should earnestly seek to know and appreciate the truth, that we may present it to others as it is in Jesus. We need to have a correct estimate of the value of our own souls; then we would not be as reckless in regard to our course of action as at present. We would seek most earnestly to know God's way; we would work in an opposite direction from selfishness, and our constant prayer would be that we might have the mind of Christ, that we might be molded and fashioned after his likeness. It is in looking to Jesus and beholding his loveliness, having our eyes steadfastly fixed upon him, that we become changed into his image. He will give grace to all that keep his way, and do his will, and walk in truth. But those who love their own way, who worship their idols of opinion, and do not love God and obey his word, will continue to walk in darkness. O, how terrible is unbelief! As well let light be poured upon the blind, as to present truth to these souls; the one cannot see, and the other will not see. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 4}

I beseech you whose names are registered on the church-book as worthy members, to be indeed worthy, through the virtue of Christ. Mercy and truth and the love of God are promised to the humble and contrite soul. The displeasure and judgments of God are against those who persist in walking in their own ways, loving self, loving the praise of men. They will certainly be swept into the satanic delusions of these last days, because they received not the love of the truth. Because the Lord has, in former days, blessed and honored them, they flatter themselves that they are chosen and true, and do not need warning and instruction and reproof. The True Witness says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." The professed people of God have the charge against them, "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 5}

The love to Jesus that once burned upon the altar of the heart, has become dimmed and nearly extinguished. Spiritual strength has become enfeebled. The displeasure of the Lord is against his people. In their present condition it is impossible for them to represent the character of Christ. And when the True Witness has sent them counsel, reproof, and warnings because he loves them, they have refused to receive the message; they have refused to come to the light, lest their deeds should be reproved. Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep. . . . Therefore doth my Father love me." "By taking your sins upon myself, I am opening a channel through which his grace can flow to all who will accept it. In giving myself for the sin of the world, I have prepared a way for the unrepressed tide of his love to flow to men." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 6}

All heaven is filled with amazement, that when this love, so broad, so deep, so rich and full, is presented to men who have known the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, they are so indifferent, so cold and unmoved. What does it mean that such amazing grace does not soften our hard hearts? O! it is because of the power of unbelief; because "thou hast left thy first love." This is why the word of God has so little influence. It is as a fire, but it cannot penetrate nor warm the ice-bound heart that cherishes unbelief. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 7}

The infinite treasures of truth have been accumulating from age to age. No representation could adequately impress us with the extent, the richness, of these vast resources. They are awaiting the demand of those who appreciate them. These gems of truth are to be gathered up by God's remnant people, to be given by them to the world; but self-confidence and obduracy of soul refuse the blessed treasure. "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Such love cannot be measured, neither can it be expressed. John calls upon the world to "behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of God." It is a love that passeth knowledge. In the fullness of the sacrifice, nothing was withheld: Jesus gave himself. God designs that his people shall love one another as Christ loved us. They are to educate and train the soul for this love. They are to reflect this love in their own character, to reflect it to the world. Each should look upon this as his work. In his prayer to the Father, Jesus said: "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." Christ's fullness is to be presented to the world by those who have become partakers of his grace. They are to do that for Christ which Christ did for the Father,--represent his character. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 8}

There is a lack of moral and spiritual power throughout our Conferences. Many churches do not have light in themselves. The members do not give evidence that they are branches of the True Vine, by bearing much fruit to the glory of God, but appear to be withering away. Their Redeemer has withdrawn his light, the inspiration of his Holy Spirit, from their assemblies; for they have ceased to represent the self-denial, the sympathy and compassionate love of the world's Redeemer; they have not love for the souls for whom Christ has died. They have ceased to be true and faithful. It is a sad picture,--the feeble piety, the want of consecration and devotion to God. There has been a separation of the soul from God; many have cut off the communication between him and the soul by refusing his messengers and his message. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 9}

In our largest churches the greatest evils exist, because these have had the greatest light. They have not a true knowledge of God, and of Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The leaven of unbelief is working, and unless these evils which bring the displeasure of God are corrected in its members, the whole church stands accountable for them. The deep movings of the Spirit of God are not with them; the glorious presence of the King of saints, and his power to cleanse from all moral defilement, are not manifest among them. Many come to the assembly as worshipers, like the door upon its hinges. They understand not the true application of the Scriptures, nor the power of God. They have eyes, but they see not; ears have they, but they hear not; they continue in their evil ways, yet regard themselves as the privileged, obedient people who are doers of the word. A carnal security and ease in Zion prevail. Peace, peace, is sounded in her borders, when God has not spoken peace. They have forfeited the terms of peace; there is reason for an alarm to be sounded in all "my holy mountain." The sinners in Zion should be afraid, in a time when they do not expect it, sudden destruction will surely come upon all who are at ease. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 10}

The Holy Spirit strives to make apparent the claims of God, but men pay heed only for a moment, and turn their minds to other things: Satan catches away the seeds of truth; the gracious influence of the Spirit of God is effectually resisted. Thus many are grieving away the Holy Spirit for the last time, and they know it not. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 11}

The words spoken by Christ of Jerusalem are, "Your house is left unto you desolate." What anguish of soul did Jesus feel when all his appeals, his warnings and reproofs, were resisted! At the time he brought them home to the soul, impressions were made; but self-love, self-sufficiency, love of the world, came in and choked the good seed sown. Pride of heart prevented his hearers from humbling themselves before God, and confessing their sin in resisting his Holy Spirit, and reluctantly it left them. On the crest of Olivet, as he beheld the city, he wept over it, saying, "If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!" Here he paused; he was loth to utter the irrevocable sentence. O that Jerusalem would repent! When the fast westering sun should pass out of sight, her day of mercy would be ended. Jesus closed his sentence, "But now they are hid from thine eyes." On another occasion he lamented the impenitence of the chosen city: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." The Lord forbid that this scene should now be repeated in the experience of God's professed people! "My Spirit," he says, "shall not always strive with man." The time will come when it must be said of the impenitent, "Ephraim is joined to his idols; let him alone." {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 12}

Will the church see where she has fallen? A coldness, hardness of heart, a want of sympathy for the brethren, exists in the church. An absence of love for the erring is manifested. There is a withdrawing from the very ones who need pity and help. A severity, an overbearing spirit, such as existed among the Pharisees, exists in our churches, and especially in those intrusted with sacred responsibilities. They are lifted up in self-esteem and self-assurance. The widow and the fatherless have not their sympathy or their love. This is entirely unlike the spirit of Christ. The Lord looks with displeasure upon the coarse, harsh spirit that has been manifested by some,--a spirit so devoid of sympathy, of tender appreciation of those whom he loves. Brethren, you who close the heart against Christ's suffering ones, remember, that as you deal with them, God will deal with you. When you call, he will not say, "Here I am;" when you cry, he will not answer. Satan is watching, preparing his delusions to ensnare those who are filled with self-importance while they are spiritually destitute. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 13}

The road to paradise is not one of self-exaltation, but of repentance, confession, humiliation, of faith and obedience. The message to the Laodicean Church is appropriate to the church at this time: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore and repent." There are many who are priding themselves upon their spiritual riches, their knowledge of the truth, and are living in guilty self-deception. When the members of the church humble themselves before God by zealous, not half-hearted, lifeless action, the Lord will receive them. But he declares, "I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." How long shall this warning be resisted? How long shall it be slighted? {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 14}

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." The position of Christ is the attitude of forbearance and importunity. "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich." O, the soul-poverty is alarming! And those who are most in need of the gold of love, feel rich and increased with goods, when they lack every grace. Having lost faith and love, they have lost everything. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 15}

The Lord has sent a message to arouse his people to repent, and do their first works; but how has his message been received? While some have heeded it, others have cast contempt and reproach on the message and the messenger. Spirituality deadened, humility and childlike simplicity gone, a mechanical, formal profession of faith has taken the place of love and devotion. Is this mournful condition of things to continue? is the lamp of God's love to go out in darkness? The Saviour calls; listen to his voice: "Be zealous and repent." Repent, confess your sins, and you will be forgiven. "Turn ye, turn ye; for why will ye die?" Why will you try to rekindle a mere fitful fire, and walk in the sparks of your own kindling? {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 16}

The True Witness declares, "I know thy works." "Repent, and do the first works." This is the true test, the evidence that the Spirit of God is working in the heart to imbue you with his love. "I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." The church is like the unproductive tree which, receiving the dew and rain and sunshine, should have produced an abundance of fruit, but on which the divine search discovers nothing but leaves. Solemn thought for our churches! solemn, indeed, for every individual! Marvelous is the patience and forbearance of God; but "except thou repent," it will be exhausted; the churches, our institutions, will go from weakness to weakness, from cold formality to deadness, while they are saying, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." The True Witness says, "And knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Will they ever see clearly their condition? {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 17}

There is to be in the churches a wonderful manifestation of the power of God, but it will not move upon those who have not humbled themselves before the Lord, and opened the door of the heart by confession and repentance. In the manifestation of that power which lightens the earth with the glory of God, they will see only something which in their blindness they think dangerous, something which will arouse their fears, and they will brace themselves to resist it. Because the Lord does not work according to their ideas and expectations, they will oppose the work. "Why," they say, "should not we know the Spirit of God, when we have been in the work so many years?"--Because they did not respond to the warnings, the entreaties of the messages of God, but persistently said, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." Talent, long experience, will not make men channels of light, unless they place themselves under the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness, and are called, and chosen, and prepared by the endowment of the Holy Spirit. When men who handle sacred things will humble themselves under the mighty hand of God, the Lord will lift them up. He will make them men of discernment--men rich in the grace of his Spirit. Their strong, selfish traits of character, their stubbornness, will be seen in the light shining from the Light of the world. "I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."If you seek the Lord with all your heart, he will be found of you. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 18}

The end is near! We have not a moment to lose! Light is to shine forth from God's people in clear, distinct rays, bringing Jesus before the churches and before the world. Our work is not to be restricted to those who already know the truth; our field is the world. The instrumentalities to be used are those souls who gladly receive the light of truth which God communicates to them. These are God's agencies for communicating the knowledge of truth to the world. If through the grace of Christ his people will become new bottles, he will fill them with the new wine. God will give additional light, and old truths will be recovered, and replaced in the frame-work of truth; and wherever the laborers go, they will triumph. As Christ's ambassadors, they are to search the Scriptures, to seek for the truths that have been hidden beneath the rubbish of error. And every ray of light received is to be communicated to others. One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 19}

"This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." "Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord." This is what needs to be brought into the experience of every worker, high or low, in all our institutions, in all our churches. God wants every soul to return to the first love. He wants all to have the gold of faith and love, so that they can draw from the treasure to impart to others who need it. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 20}

Then the believers will be of one heart and of one mind, and the Lord will make his word powerful in the earth. New cities and villages and territories will be entered; the church will arise and shine, because her light has come, for the glory of the Lord is risen upon her. New converts will be added to the churches, and those who now claim to be converted will feel in their own hearts the transforming power of the grace of Christ. Then Satan will be aroused, and will excite the bitterest persecution against God's people. But those not of our faith, who have not rejected light, will recognize the spirit of Christ in his true followers, and will take their stand with the people of God. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 21}

Christ says, speaking of the Comforter, "He shall not speak of himself;" "he shall testify of me;" "he shall glorify me." How little has Christ been preached! The laborers have presented theories, plenty of them, but little of Christ and his love. As the Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of his love, so the Spirit came to glorify Christ by revealing to
the world the riches of his love and grace. If the Holy Spirit dwells in us, our work will testify to the fact, we shall lift up Jesus. Not one can afford to be silent now; the burden of the work is to present Christ to the world. All who venture to have their own way, who do not join the angels who are sent from heaven with a message to fill the whole earth with its glory, will be passed by. The work will go forward to victory without them, and they will have no part in its triumph.

Mrs. E. G. White.
{RH, December 23, 1890 par. 22}

It is quite comical His child that you can’t objectively and transparently prove, nor even demonstrate that your views are Biblical, i.e., by just posting the exact dates and specific events of even just fulfilled interpretations in your view, (let alone future, supposed to be fulfilled, future event), but you patently usurp EGW statements to try to justify yourself. Not fooling, nor impressing me!! (e.g., Matt 4:5-7) And this scheming surely won’t get to buy your books.

Bible truth is not linked to a comedy. Misunderstanding of it is a tragedy. Tragedy that is often repeated


And that happened in our church too!





I have given freely and continue to do so. But when what I have given is trampled and my views and I are misrepresented, it makes no sense to continue to cast pearls of wisdom before the ones that are trampling them so. Since they take me out of context, why should I give them more ammunition to remove from its setting?

The problem is what you have posted does not check out as Bible Truth. (Isa 8:20). Just your mere, unexegetical and with hermeneutics opinions. As sort of SDA Bible Code. Yet you are still trying to ‘call fire down from Heaven’ for anyone who does not see this and you just cannot explain it. And to me your claim of this being a soon to be fulfilled, final events & chance, message of God, yet you will only sell it to people, makes no Biblical sense to me. It is clearly to me just a “profitic” message on your part.



You are also substantively doing the same thing. I.e., you refuse to correct the pointed out errors and unbiblical methodology in your work, (and that is mainly from what you have presented, as presumedly your best arguments, thus far. As with the SDA Churches refusal to advanced into Biblical light, I see that this is similar rooted in economical reasons. I.e., it will financially cost you to much to now make such corrections.



If the problem is ‘a lack of context’ (I however don’t see how what you are claiming is thus redeemable), then why not post an entire book online for free. If it “truly” will be redeemed by its context then that itself would boost your sales, as then everyone will clearly see that you know what you are doing and are preaching sound Biblical Truth and will not only probably pay the full price for the book but will encourage others to buy it. You can even restrict this free distribution for those who email you a request for this free PDF copy.

“Surely” the posting of the entire context/setting would not be “more ammunition” unless the entire book is also deservingly so!!

To me your whole approach, from message formulation to its capitalistic distribution does not harmonize with your effective claim (i.e., by your accompany denunciations) that it is a ‘(short) time-dependent, prophetic message, from God’.



You are the one who is both (a) encouraging and (b) preventing this by (a) not clearly, transparently and demonstrably proving what you are claiming as “God’s prophetic truth” but rather making dooming condemnations, and (b) by restricting the full/transparent access to even one of your expositions, instead using a ‘pay for God’s truth’ approach. To me, especially given the many unresolved strikes against you, that is just patently a “con artistry scheme”, especially since there is no money back guarantee for those time prophecies. Why should people pay to read your mere opinions, which are in fact arrived at through unbiblical/unexegetical measures.

Again why don’t you simply post the dates and events of your claimed past fulfillments, and also the future ones?? Why does someone need to, as they are only left to with you, first pay before they can decide if those claims are objectively true or not. William Miller started a massive prophetic movement by freely proclaiming what had taken him years of study to arrive at.

People can and will always freely choose whether to believe you or not, (even God has to put up with this, yet He freely gave His Son), but to first require money from them before they can make this decision for moreoverly a “timed prophetic message”, seems rather, generally, pre-emptively, or reactionarily, vindictive to me. The Biblical (i.e., not worldly/Capitalistic) model for God’s True People in regards to His message (Matt 10:7-10) is to ‘receive as a free gift what you and/or you work is worthy of’ and not require this in advance. That is indeed how the publishing work of the Early Adventists began. But of course both you and the Church prefer to go by the Capitalistic method/mandate, even if this is by supposed necessity (= Rev 13:16, 17). Good Luck!!

Since I give away more than I can afford on a weekly basis and I cannot afford to give to everyone who asks, I am compelled to be selective. Certainly a farmer would not be advised to sow his seed in a field that was so muddy that his tractor could not work it.

And since you choose to to fault everything I post, you would be better served to get the information from the source. The Lord blessed my prayers and countless hours of study. He will bless yours as well and it won't be something I said, it will be God revealing truth to you so you can trust it.

But if God should allow for you to loose your job, house, family, and many friends because He shows you something that is not popular, hang in there. And practice rejoicing when people find fault with everything you say. It may be that the Lord is training you to meet real difficulties when they come (and they will be here very soon).

I do thank you for asking. When I was reading over material in Daniel today, I found a mistake in my study. I am dyslexic and inverted some numbers. It was a blessing in disguise. When I prayed and studied the Lord showed me more than I could imagine. But had I shared those scrambled numbers to you, I would have had to try to straighten it out and that would have been more work than it is worth. And had you purchased my book, you might have pressed me for an $80.00 refund on you $20.00 investment. So now that the Lord has given me more facts and figures, I rejoice and continue my prayerful study.

God is so good. Amen

Just asked you to transparently published the dates and events for your claims of past and future prophetic events. That’s Biblical (Isa 41:21-24, 26; 44:7; cf. Deut 18:22). Obviously you just can’t do that and your “Seed/pearls” excuses don’t begin to Biblically/(Exegetically) justify you.

And surely one freely accessed full book that “should” clearly demonstrate your Biblicalness should be detrimental to you and only serve to boost the sales of your other books, as well as generate free will donations, even beyond the price of that freely released books. E.g., Samuele Bacchiocchi, being a self-published author like you by SDA Publishers, used to freely provide a lot of info into his books during his weekend Sabbath Enrichment seminars and the sales of his books was not lessened, but only heightened.



Not that hard actually...there are faults in what you post. And do notice that I focus mostly on factual issues and just ignore your mere resulting speculative claims (e.g., your claim for the 7 Heads). And all that you have/had to do for those pointed out faults is provide the factually/exegetically/biblically resolving answer!??



If the outspring is bitter, how can the source be sweet??? And you do not even state, for most of what I have posted, that you have the answer for those pointed objection in your book.



I verify whatever I “hear” with what the Bible says. (Isa 8:20). You seem to have the Mormon “feeling of Truth” approach.



Or it may be that, like King Saul, you stop advancing where God had (exegetically) planned for you to be a long time ago... (E.g, 1 Sam 15:20-35 Just because God did not overthrow King Saul for over 13 years after He had chosen David to replace him, it does not mean that God himself was still ‘constructively working with him’ (1 Sam 16:14ff). Yet God still prevented physical harm from occurring to Saul.



If your message is so “prophetic”, as you want people to believe when hawking your books (but not, e.g., Post #134223 when asked to substantiate your prophetic claims), then do state the datum specifics of your “timed messages claims.”



You’re welcome. Glad I contributed in correcting that mistake of yours. (Not sure if that means that this mistake is also in a currently published book). Now on to the other ones if cited....

Manifestly you prefer to still sell your books that contain those mistakes than provide the corrections, which could easily be done through an “errata webpage.”

Unfortunately, we have become accustomed to being spoon fed. For example, when we watch TV we see who done it, how they were caught and the conclusion in an hour. It is a done deal.

In Bible study, we have come to expect that the study can be comprehensive on every topic of choice. Here's the study, that's the way it is.

But in reality as prophecy and history merge, it is difficult to correctly follow truth. The naysayers muddy the water and the saints filter out the debris as they search for truth.

thus truth can be hard to find and if those that think that they have it only have a partial understanding that has to be refined and purified some of the saints loose patience before they can' get the whole story