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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Harold Fair]
#135585
08/07/11 02:22 AM
08/07/11 02:22 AM
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The Orient
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His Child, Obviously, as that period of time is still future, it is a prophetic time. If, as such, it is "no more" after 1844, then it would appear that we have to either reinterpret the timing of it, to put in into the past, or else we have to say there was a contradiction between Mrs. White and the Bible...unless we recognize that Mrs. White is not saying what many think she is. I think you are trying too hard to find fault. The 1000 years is not dated in the Bible or SOP. That is what she means by prophetic time. All the prophecies about time have been fulfilled. Those have nothing to do with the millennium. Harold. Harold, The Bible speaks of 1000 years, don't you think? I'm not quite sure what you mean by "dated." If you mean the start time, then you might be right. But, let me assure you, I am not attempting here to predict the start of the time. Guess what? When God gave Daniel the 2300-day/year prophecy, God did not give him the start time either. The start time was not at that moment critical, or God would have provided it. Instead, He marked the time with an event that would occur--the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. In the case of the 1000-years, is there an event that would start this time period? Is it not Jesus' coming and taking His saints to Heaven? Following the decree, the 2300 years begin. Following Christ's advent, the 1000 years begin. Is there any place here where you think I am not correct? Here are the textual supports that I would lean on in my understanding. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (Revelation 20:1, KJV)
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2, KJV)
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:3, KJV)
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4, KJV)
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5, KJV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6, KJV)
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (Revelation 20:7, KJV)
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Revelation 20:8, KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9, KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10, KJV) This passage in Revelation tells us some of what to expect at the start, during, and at the end of the 1000 years. Unless one chooses to interpret these revelations recorded by John to have already occurred, such as prior to 1844, then one most reasonably would accept that they are prophecies. Unless one chooses to reinterpret 1000 years to be, say, 1500 years, a million years, or any arbitrary number, for that matter, other than 1000 years, one most reasonably would acknowledge this as a specific time period. Another way of looking at a specific time period would be to call it a period of "definite time." Now, let's suppose that this time is "arbitrary" in the sense of not being exactly 1000 years. Then we have a small dilemma, or contradiction, with inspiration. Here is the statement: "The saints will rest in the Holy City and reign as kings and priests one thousand years; then Jesus will descend with the saints upon the Mount of Olives, and the mount will part asunder and become a mighty plain for the Paradise of God to rest upon. The rest of the earth will not be cleansed until the end of the one thousand years, when the wicked dead are raised, and gather up around the city. The feet of the wicked will never desecrate the earth made new. Fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them--burn them up root and branch. Satan is the root, and his children are the branches. The same fire that will devour the wicked will purify the earth." {EW 51.3}
The Last Plagues and the Judgment
At the general conference of believers in the present truth, held at Sutton, Vermont, September, 1850, I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out after Jesus leaves the sanctuary. Said the angel, "It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the one thousand years." {EW 52.1} After the saints are changed to immortality and caught up together with Jesus, after they receive their harps, their robes, and their crowns, and enter the city, Jesus and the saints sit in judgment. The books are opened--the book of life and the book of death. The book of life contains the good deeds of the saints; and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books are compared with the statute book, the Bible, and according to that men are judged. The saints, in unison with Jesus, pass their judgment upon the wicked dead. "Behold ye," said the angel, "the saints, in unison with Jesus, sit in judgment, and mete out to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, and that which they must receive at the execution of the judgment is set off against their names." This, I saw, was the work of the saints with Jesus through the one thousand years in the Holy City before it descends to the earth. Then at the close of the one thousand years, Jesus, with the angels and all the saints, leaves the Holy City, and while He is descending to the earth with them, the wicked dead are raised, and then the very men that "pierced Him," being raised, will see Him afar off in all His glory, the angels and saints with Him, and will wail because of Him. They will see the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, and where they thrust the spear into His side. The prints of the nails and the spear will then be His glory. It is at the close of the one thousand years that Jesus stands upon the Mount of Olives, and the mount parts asunder and becomes a mighty plain. Those who flee at that time are the wicked, who have just been raised. Then the Holy City comes down and settles on the plain. Satan then imbues the wicked with his spirit. He flatters them that the army in the city is small, and that his army is large, and that they can overcome the saints and take the city. {EW 52.2}
Multiple times, Ellen White speaks of the 1000 years and of what will be happening during that time. She specifies particularly the event which marks their precise completion--Jesus' standing upon the Mount of Olives and it becoming a plain. That sounds like a "definite time" to me. As His Child has pointed out, the "definite time" Ellen White speaks of is not referring to ALL prophetic times, but to God's second advent in particular. The context tells us this. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#135587
08/07/11 10:55 AM
08/07/11 10:55 AM
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Posts: 215
Florida, USA
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Now I can agree with all you say, Green Cochoa. Some believe that the 1000 years is just the 7th in the series of 1000 years. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8. Adds up.
Harold T.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Harold Fair]
#135592
08/07/11 01:04 PM
08/07/11 01:04 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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Now I can agree with all you say, Green Cochoa. Some believe that the 1000 years is just the 7th in the series of 1000 years. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8. Adds up. Imagine finding three people in on accord in this day and age (Of course that is possible they are such small cars)
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Harold Fair]
#135593
08/07/11 01:08 PM
08/07/11 01:08 PM
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You may find the following EGW quote to be very relevant and most interesting in relation to this topic:
“Time No Longer”
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, . . . that there should be time no longer. Revelation 10:5, 6. {CTr 344.1}
The mighty Angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part that He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy has waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. . . . {CTr 344.2}
After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the instruction comes to John, as to Daniel, in regard to the little book: “Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered.”. . . John sees the little book unsealed. . . . Then Daniel’s prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels’ messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time. {CTr 344.3}
The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. . . . The special light given to John, which was expressed in the seven thunders, was a delineation of events that would transpire under the first and second angels’ messages. . . . The first and second angels’ messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. . . . {CTr 344.4}
This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}
The Angel’s position, with one foot on the sea, the other on the land, signifies the wide extent of the proclamation of the message. It will cross the broad waters and be proclaimed in other countries, even to all the world. The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message, is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls.—Manuscript 59, 1900 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 19, pp. 319-321). {CTr 344.6} [/quote]
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Daryl]
#135596
08/07/11 03:19 PM
08/07/11 03:19 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Daryl,
Of all prophetic times which we might choose to look at in our day, which one would you say is the most important? Would you agree with me that it would be the time of Jesus' return? We are told He will come back. The Bible speaks of the day of His coming. It speaks of the hour. But when these times will come is not given. Nonetheless, THE time of all prophetic times would be the Second Advent.
Notice carefully Ellen White's wording in that portion which you highlighted. Do you see how Mrs. White has said "the prophetic time"? What was "the time" in 1844? Was it not predicted to be Jesus' advent? And that was the last such prediction of His return that was to be made based on prophecy of "definite time." There will certainly be a time for Jesus' return. But that time is not to be published in our message to the world ever again. There will not be again a "definite time" that we should preach concerning His coming.
THE time of all times will not be traceable in terms of "definite time." Ellen White and I are agreed.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#135597
08/07/11 03:25 PM
08/07/11 03:25 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Daryl,
I'll point out one more thing. Suppose we were to remove just one comma from Mrs. White's statement, a comma very probably placed there by one of her editors (unless you believe the editors never adjusted her punctuation). Look at the difference.
"This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord."
"This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time which would precede the advent of our Lord."
It is easy to see the meaning here which may have been intended and would have been more clearly conveyed without that comma.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#135602
08/07/11 04:12 PM
08/07/11 04:12 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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"This time [prophetic time from 1842-44] . . . which would precede the advent of our Lord." EGW
"The angel . . . sware . . . that there should be time no longer." (Revelation 10:6)
It is "this time" that shall "be no longer".
Revelation 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world’s history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135603
08/07/11 04:13 PM
08/07/11 04:13 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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We cannot reapply the 2300 day prophecy - it shall "be no longer".
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135632
08/09/11 02:36 PM
08/09/11 02:36 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
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Posts: 6,512
Midland
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After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}
I hadn't noticed that before. Does that mean what it appears to mean? What prophetic time began in 1842 and ended in 1844 - a period of 2-3 years? I had just read something in Daniel about a season and a time.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Harold Fair]
#135633
08/09/11 02:41 PM
08/09/11 02:41 PM
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What about Daniel 12? Are you so sure that they have not been fulfilled? The 1260 day prophecy hasn no starting date, either. But we know it is finished. What about the others starting about the same time as that one, or a little before? THey would all end at the same time. Some think that they have. I do. It makes sense. What happened 30 years before the start of the 1260? Or 135 years? The commentary and others call Chapter 12 an epilogue. What does an epilogue mean to you?
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