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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Johann]
#135689
08/17/11 11:20 PM
08/17/11 11:20 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning? Yes, but what claims should one make on the basis of this answer? 1 John 1:8-10
...
1 John 3:6 But aside from the claims one may or may not make, there is something even more fundamental: Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. {SL 7.2} More important than not making the claim to sinlessness, true saints will not even THINK they are sinless. Why? Because they will deeply "feel their own defects." Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135690
08/17/11 11:31 PM
08/17/11 11:31 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning? I would think that if one is to live sinlessly, he would be required to do it without sinning. IOW, "without sinning" is a necessary condition for living sinlessly. Perhaps a more pressing question is this: If one has stopped committing sin, does that mean he is sinless? Furthermore, if he was truly sinless, would it be a sin for him to claim otherwise?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: asygo]
#135695
08/18/11 09:48 PM
08/18/11 09:48 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning? Yes, but what claims should one make on the basis of this answer? 1 John 1:8-10
...
1 John 3:6 But aside from the claims one may or may not make, there is something even more fundamental: Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. {SL 7.2} More important than not making the claim to sinlessness, true saints will not even THINK they are sinless. Why? Because they will deeply "feel their own defects." Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are? Serious and important questions. Thank you, Asygo. This turns my thoughts to Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. And the words of John the Baptist: Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear! Matt. 3:11. It is a matter of Who is worthy? Do I reach the kingdom because I am worthy - or is it HIM who is worthy because He was slain? He must increase and I must decrease.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Johann]
#135698
08/19/11 11:12 AM
08/19/11 11:12 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Ellen White indicates that Revelation 5 could be a key to understand "what constitutes sin" and dealing with those who lack that understanding. 9T267. Revelation 5 deals with worshiping the Lamb that is worthy. It points us to Jesus Christ. Again, 1 John 3:4 defines lawlessness as sin, and the rest of that chapter deals with the law regulating how our relationship is to others. Ellen White deals with that aspect in My Life Today from August 16 to 22. In all your transactions with your fellow men never forget that you are dealing with God’s property. Be kind; be pitiful; be courteous. Respect God’s purchased possession. Treat one another with tenderness and courtesy. {ML 235.3}
My Life Today, p. 235.4 (EGW)
If you have enmity, suspicion, envy, and jealousy in your hearts, you have a work to do to make these things right. Confess your sins; come into harmony with your brethren. Speak well of them. Throw out no unfavorable hints, no suggestions that will awaken distrust in the minds of others. Guard their reputation as sacredly as you would have them guard yours; love them as you would be loved of Jesus. {ML 235.4}
My Life Today, p. 235.5 (EGW)
The grace of God leads men to place themselves in all their business transactions in the place of those with whom they are dealing. It leads men to look not only on their own things but also on the things of others. It leads them to reveal tenderness, sympathy, and kindness. Cherishing a right spirit, living a holy life—this is what being Christlike means.... {ML 235.5}
My Life Today, p. 235.6 (EGW)
Let your life be controlled by the wide, generous principles of the Bible, the principles of good will, kindness, and courtesy. {ML 235.6} By this standard, do I live a sinless life? What are my feelings towards the mailman who did not close my mailbox well enough, so when the storm came the rain poured on my mail? Elsewhere in these sections I read something like that the worst people around me are my neighbors. How I am towards those if that determines if I keep the law or not, more than how well I am groomed for church? As the final day approaches where do I stand? Have I received forgiveness from every person I may not have treated as I should during my 78 years?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Johann]
#135744
08/26/11 08:14 AM
08/26/11 08:14 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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In the fifty-eighth chapter of Isaiah the work that the people of God are to do in Christ's lines is dearly set forth. They are to break every yoke, they are to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked. . . . If they carry out the principles of the law of God in acts of mercy and love, they will represent the character of God to the world, and receive the richest blessings of Heaven.
From My Life Today - Page 246
Those who have pity for the . . . widows, the orphans, and the needy, Christ represents as commandment keepers, who shall have eternal life.
From My Life Today - Page 244 By these standards am I keeping the commandments and live in "Sinless Perfection"?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Johann]
#135769
08/27/11 03:15 PM
08/27/11 03:15 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are? Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out. Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: asygo]
#135770
08/27/11 03:26 PM
08/27/11 03:26 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Is it possible to live sinlessly without sinning? I would think that if one is to live sinlessly, he would be required to do it without sinning. IOW, "without sinning" is a necessary condition for living sinlessly. Perhaps a more pressing question is this: If one has stopped committing sin, does that mean he is sinless? Furthermore, if he was truly sinless, would it be a sin for him to claim otherwise? Some people seem to think Christians live sinlessly, while sinning, because Jesus covers their sins with His blood and righteousness. Yes, believers who are abiding in Jesus and who have stopped sinning are sinless. They do not claim to be sinless because they are focused on Jesus. If they were asked, Are you sinless? Do you sin? When was the last time you sinned? they would say, According to the word of God, believers who are abiding in Jesus do not sin. While I am abiding in Jesus I do not sin.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135771
08/27/11 03:32 PM
08/27/11 03:32 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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We are only capable of doing one thing at a time. We are not omniscient or omnipresent. We cannot be sinning and not sinning at the same time. At any one moment of time we are either abiding in Jesus and not sinning or we are not abiding in Jesus and sinning. The goal, therefore, is to abide in Jesus all the time. Those who do are not sinning. It's that simple.
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135780
08/27/11 05:43 PM
08/27/11 05:43 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them. ???? Did Christ have character defects, weaknesses and imperfections?
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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ...
[Re: Mountain Man]
#135810
08/29/11 11:52 PM
08/29/11 11:52 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
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Are such people being misled, feeling defects that are not really there? Or are they seeing things as they truly are? Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out. True. Hating someone is not the same as killing. Nevertheless, they are both sin. Those saints who do not sin because they are abiding in Jesus "have defects, weaknesses, and imperfections". Jesus also had them. So, do you believe that "the more deeply will they feel their own defects" applies to Jesus?
By God's grace,
Arnold
1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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