MM I would of liked you answering these questions. Anyway for the sake to get this discussion moving forward I will comment only on (d) for today. It's ok to not want to answer MM. Please don't feel obliged.

Jesus nor any sacrificial animals (all representing Jesus) were burn alive -- They were all SACRIFICED beforehand. There's just two people(if my memory is correct) in the OT that were burned, and both these instances they were stoned prior to being burned.

Stoning was how people in the OT were put to death. No one ever were killed alive in a fire.

So our challenge here is
(1) to understand the spiritual meaning of stoning
(2) and the meaning of fire in the sacrifices and elsewhere

Thanks that in itself actually sequiturly answers my question which then let’s me consider that your further points are to the point/issue at hand and not askew.



My view is that God has also given us the writings of EGW and when her statements are not direct revelations, which I see as being on par with the Bible’s own direct revelation (i.e., ‘thus says the Lord’ and prophecies) then EGW’s writings have to first be thoroughly exegetically tested to see if they are accurate.



When these explaining men are God’s appointed people such as Spirit-led Bible writers, then I see no “problem” in that. In the case of the Israelites and Moses, e.g., when God spoke from Sinai, it was because the people were spiritually unready to hear directly from God that they asked Moses to instead speak to them. Spiritually speaking, the same thing occurred with EGW and SDA’s, even to this day. Unfortunately, EGW was not exegetically perfect, and so in some areas she was in error as the Bible corrected her.



From my previous responses in our discussion in Adventist Online, I categorically do not see your derived understanding of 1 John 2:27.



From what I understand, these first 5 books were generally called the law of Moses for short, but the “Law” only applied to Laws found in the majority in these books, e.g., major parts of Exodus; a little portion of Numbers, most, if not all of Leviticus and parts of Deuteronomy. The books of Genesis and Job are merely Historical, though as the first of Biblical Histories, they have a significant foundational aspect, but not necessarily a Law.



As seen in my response in Post #135208 I did not find your exposition in Post 135199 to be actually exegetically convincing. To me any experience is to be tested against the Law and the Testimonies, and Moses was the first benchmark of both. So, in regards to the Testimonies, any other prophet who passes these tests, can then be used to measure future experiences against. E.g. the physical experiences of the Prophet Daniel served to validate the prophetic experience of EGW.



Where does the Bible say/reveal this??



I see that this Law understanding has been done in many ways through other subsequent prophets in the Bible, including Jesus. (E.g., Matt 5-7). So I do not see a need to dichotomize the Bible, but to study all of it when trying to understand a doctrine. Indeed it has been my experience that when I first understand the more clear prophetic revelations and explanations in the Bible beyond the books of Moses, I can then more readily understand what a Law had meant. Case in point, when I first understood the teaching of Hell in the Bible and SOP, I was then able to see how it was also incorporated in the Sanctuary Service of Israel. This “whole” and less Theologically remote approach is better for me in Bible Study.



My understanding, based upon the writing of God’s Chosen Apostle and Prophet, and no doubt not by accident, an expert in the Law of Moses, Paul, that the Law contained in ordinances is what was nailed to the cross. I.e., do you still sacrifices Lambs each year, indeed even if you may observe the Biblical Passover Festival?? And as exegetically borne out in 2books by Samuele Bacchiocchi on the Spring and Fall Feasts of Israel, as the Bible says, observice those feasts days in the New Covenant Era is purely optional, however I will say that instead of observing Catholic and even secular Feasts, we should indeed be observing those Biblical Feasts days in an New Covenant Christian context. Also observing their precise calender timing can’t hurt as they do have to have a regular time each year, so why not the Biblical one.

Succinctly said, my own Doctrinal/Theological view on the suffering and death tot be involved in hell is that (in case of stoning and then burning - please do cite the reference for those 2 examples):

-Just like it was to be worthy Israelites who were to do the stoning, the redeem will be the one who will mete out what the varying physical torment punishment of the wicked will be. Stoning, as a slow and painful, fully conscious killing process, was indeed a most mentally anguishing form of death, just like the torment in hell fire will be. Frankly there is not enough stone to hurl at the wicked then, so keeping them alive in the fires of Hell will have to do.
-stoning eventually brought death as will Hell Fire torment, however then only when the full sin suffering punishment is complete
-the burning of a death body after stoning (if that was the case, I don’t personally recall so) was for purification reasons for the land of Israel, as will the burning up of the wicked for the Earth.

So if you wanted a “type” of the antitype Hell in the Law of Moses, I think that you’ve got one here.

The Lord told us to test all things a brother or sister tells us according to Deut 13 & 18. Even though they say “Thus says the Lord”. A true Prophet will speak according to the Laws given to Moses. Jesus did speak accordingly and even came to fulfill the laws.


It is because of our current lack of understanding of how God works, we do not see how the whole 5 books are Laws. For instance, the book of Genesis is considered a law, for God established the first experiences of the people on earth to lay down the laws on how He will work in following generations ‘till Jesus 2nd coming. God is always consistent in his ways and judgments. We can see patern which are based on laws. Also much is reveal about the appointed time God’s laws are fulfilled in the book of Genesis. These can be found by careful studies of the book of Genesis by knowing that all of the laws given to Moses are spiritual and prophetic in meaning.

I have gave you a glimpse of how God used the life of Abraham with his two sons -- (1)Ishmael = wild ass=Israel=sons of Flesh, (2)Issaac=sons of Faith ) -- to establish the outline of the plan of salvation which Jesus(Jhn 3) and Paul(1Cr 15:44,46; Gal 4:23) explained the principle/law of order (The Natural is first, then the Spiritual is second). See Post #132621 under the Title The Type in Abraham’s two Sons


A similar physical experience of Daniel is not a test to validate if the prophet is a true prophet or not, according to the Law of False prophet in Deut 13. Even if what a false prophet says or the sign or wonder comes to pass …. All these are not the tests of a true prophet. Deut 13:1-3 says false prophets sign or wonder can come to pass.

Deut 13:1 “If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, (2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; (3) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. (4) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. (5) And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

In verse 3, the Lord says the reason why He sends false prophets so to test us so we can see our own heart if we will follow the Lord or not.

In verse 4 & 5, the test of a true Prophet is if they speak according to the Laws where God gaved us all His commandments in the way which we should walk.

Luk 24:44 “And he (Jesus) “said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Also the disciples of Jesus followed His example by using the Law of Moses and the prophets to persuades any man.

Act 28:23 “And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

I do agree that a prophetic fullfillment can lead us to understand better a law, however, it is more effective to first understand the law by which clearly reveals and establish the fundamentals ways of the Lord by which He opperates.

In science, we might observe a phenomenon which is an execution of a unknown law. It takes lots of experimentings, trials and errors to arrive to the fundamental of the law that govern what we observe. But it is only once we understand the law that we can applied this understanding to any events afterwards. The Lord did not reveal to man all the laws in scientific mathematic form by which took milleniums to discover, however, He did give us His Laws to Moses for us, so we can start from a strong fundation from the beginning in understanding His heart and mind in the science of the restoration of man and all things.

Starting from an understanding of the Laws of Moses is the way to proceed before listening or reading any prophets. For we are call to test any prophets(or existing doctrines) which only can be done by first knowing the laws of Moses.

God’s Justice vs. Man’s Justice


So you are saying that it is because of your choice you are saved? When you’ll “be in heaven” you can boast that you’ve made it because you chose Christ whereas the other 90% of the population is not because they simply didn’t chose Him. So salvation hinges on your choice. Right? And according to your definition of justice, this is very good.

The law says “An eye for an eye” (Ex. 21:24) -- meaning the judgment imposed by the judge must always fit the crime--no more, no less—though monetary compensation could be made as the equivalent of an eye. The law makes justice the first priority with the purpose (1) to correct the sinner and (2) restore the broken relationship with his victim by RESTITUTION by imposing the law to the offender. So if you steal one dollar, you got to pay two dollars back to the victim(Ex. 21:24). This is Justice.

However, we discards what the law says and replace it with our own ideas saying that stealing even one dollar is punishable by burning/torture in the hell fire until totally anihaliated – your burning & torturing time is in proportion to the amount of your sins.

That is not divine justice as defined in the law. That is only purposeless punishment imposed by carnally-minded men who claim to know better than God the true meaning of justice.

Doesn't anyone read, really read and understand, everyone's favorite text? John 3:16. There is a hugh IF in there.

??? There's no huge "IF" nor a small one in that text ??? it says "whosoever believeth" in the KJV. If you translate literally that text it says "that(hina) every(pas) the(ho) one-believing(pisteuo)"

Do not add things that is not in the Bible.

What happens when the sinner is an incorrigible one?

Jesus satisfied the just and loving death demands of law and justice on our behalf. The law no longer condemns us. We no longer deserve to die. In Jesus, we are saved and secure.

???? You do not believe in God’s power and His abilities in bringing “ all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. ” 1 Tim 2:4

As He has vowed in AV Isa 45:23 “ I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear…25 ... all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory ”. This vow God has made is a promise of what He will Accomplish . It is not dependable on our abilities or what we will do, but on God’s abilities and what He will do and He will bring us all into glorification as He has vowed.

To say what you said above implies the following :
(1)God is not capable to fulfill His vow
(2)Thus God is a liar
(3)God’s love has no power to influence us and convert us.
(4)God did a lousy job in creating us for His design is not capable to respond to God’s love.

God is able, is not a liar, His love has power and what He has created is able to respond to Him. No problem there. The real problem is we are finite beings and have come to wrong interpretations of the Bible because we do not understand the LAW. Let’s look what the law says first and try to see where and what we have mist out.