Amen! However, having such defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as acting them out. Rebirth does not immediately eradicate them. Yes, God implants within newborn believers "new motives, new tastes, new tendencies" and by abiding in Jesus they are able to form new, sinless traits of character. In "all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." In time, their old, evil traits die out.

The idea that people are born again ignorantly acting out some of their sinful traits of character is unbiblical. Even more unbiblical is the idea that the reason they are ignorant is due to the fact the Holy Spirit is waiting to reveal it to them until the time is right. The only truths people might be ignorant of at the time of rebirth is the Sabbath, certain lifestyle truths like diet and dress, and certain doctrines like the 2300 day prophecy. Otherwise, people who experience true, genuine rebirth are completely aware of their character defects and, by the grace of God, are successfully resisting them and cultivating new, sinless traits of character. If they fail to abide in Jesus, they immediately fall into sin. However, they resolutely embrace the proffered gift of repentance and are thereby empowered to confess and forsake their failure and to resume abiding in Jesus - growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

No, it's not the same thing. However, someone who possesses them cannot be considered sinless, nor can his character be considered perfect. So, if Christ possessed them, He neither was sinless nor had a perfect character.

Jesus "took part of the same" flesh as we have (Heb 2:14). Better, far better, to say he "took" sinful flesh than that he "had" our flesh, as he is the incarnated Son of God, not the son of Joseph...

[International Critical Commentary, as far back as the 1980s, suggested that Rom 8:3b says "likeness of sinful flesh" means actual sinful flesh because Jesus, after becoming human, is also God's only begotten Son, in the form of a servant.]

Also, he was not exempt from the great law of heredity: inherited character traits are included. He just experienced justification by faith - daily receiving of his Father's Spirit, establishing the "mind of Christ" - perfectly all his life, living perfectly righteously as our Saviour and Example. At enormous, infinite risk to his deity, he could have sinned, but not for a moment did corruption, personal guilt, rest on him.

Possessing sinfulness does not automatically or necessarily mean sinning: personal choice is involved, and the power of God is at hand by grace through faith. We sin because we're sinful; we're sinners because we sin: that's the correct wording!!

As we grow in Christlikeness while he intercedes his righteous traits for our repented of sinful traits, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is the experience of justification by faith we are perfecting in this life: sanctification is but continuing, repeating, the experience of justification till in it is our continual, non-stop, waking existence. That is the promise. Probation closes because that experience is perfected in us (yes, justificaton by faith is also in us ) as the character of the wedding dress of the Lamb's bride (Rev 19:8). That "marriage of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7) is the closing of probation: ask Dwight Nelson, among others.

We retain sinful flesh till translation, but we may and need to repent perfectly of sinful inclinations as Christ himself did - not one of which, says SOP, we need retain - as we become Christlike, always looking to him.

I respectfully disagree.
There is no way a person is conscious of all their sinful traits at conversion.
You seem to be centering on the obvious things -- without realizing the deceitfulness and deep seatedness of sin.
And yes, the Holy Spirit does reveal these things A LITTLE at a time.
Sanctification is the work of a lifetime -- that is -- the Holy Spirit works with us everyday of our lives helping us to "put to death the deeds of the flesh" (Romans 8:13).

I know the Holy Spirit brings things to my attention that I hadn't even considered a problem years earlier, things about myself that I hadn't even noticed. Sometimes a moment of stress brings out something in the character that went unnoticed before but that was shaping attitudes for years and now needs to be surrendered to Christ and replaced.

The promise is:
Phil. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

We grow in grace into mature Christians.
It's not a full revelation at conversion and we "give up every sinful trait" at that point. Yes, we turn our backs on our known sins at that point. And yes, they will try to re-establish themselves if we take our focus off Christ. But there is another type of growth, which is the Holy Spirit leading us step by step ALL OUR LIVES, ironing out other defects, cleaning out other corners in our hearts and minds.

Our perfection is in Christ, not in ourselves.
While it is important to walk with Christ in obedience, surrendering all our cherished sins, yet the focus on perfecting ourselves is focusing on the wrong end of sanctification.
Too often we have our own little list of things to overcome, and if we can check them all off we think we've overcome sin. WRONG. That is seeking our own righteousness, not the righteousness the Holy Spirit leads us into. Because the Holy Spirit sees A LOT more defects than we do in our lives.

Our focus should be on living for Christ each day, one day at a time. To do HIS will and walk with Him TODAY, to take seriously His promptings.

And as long as we are following in obedience and trust we are counted as perfect in God's sight.

Colin, so you believe the law of God does not condemn opposition to virtue?


Is a character with sinful traits a perfect character?

Yes, it does: Jesus was born of a woman, born under the law, and he bore the curse of that condemnation, yet was the righteous Lamb of God.


Inherited traits aren't the character of our actions, remember. Our actions make our character, whatever our background. Worse backgrounds make it harder, that's all, and Jesus' ancestry was really, really bad in places.

If Jesus died because He was condemned by the law, He couldn't die for us.


Ellen White doesn't say at all that only our actions make our character. What she says is:

If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. —Testimonies for the Church 5:310. (94) {MYP 92.1}

"He bore the curse" on our behalf: he nailed our condemned, sinful humanity to the tree to suffer that curse, remember? Are you somehow not following my points?

Of course thoughts are behind actions and feelings, etc. Ellen White does say, again, that Christ was not exempt from the great law of heredity.

Our experience of sin and righteousness should be powered by God's grace to be Spirit-filled and Christlike - living, genuine righteousness by faith in this earth. God says so, and it pertains to mind and character, not flesh, which shall be abandoned only on that day of translation once we are ready in Spirit and character to see God's glory in our fleshly bodies.

To bear the curse on our behalf, He must be condemned only by imputation, that is, He must die for something He didn't deserve to die for, not for something He deserved to die for.


Sinful traits produce wrong thoughts and feelings. A character which is made up of wrong thoughts and feelings cannot be perfect.