Sorry, Roseangela but expressions like yours below are more "Greek" to me than the Greek source at Tuft's:

"Since God on the cross manifested His wrath for all sins, it follows that He “always” manifests His wrath against sin. This does not mean He must manifest it continually.

Do you mean to say a brooding, bubbling below the gracious "face" He continually is wrathful?? Do you mean that He has been building up "steam" for 6000 years and soon He is going to go wild on humanity because He can't take it anymore?

What's the difference between "always" and "continually"? Do you mean like once for all time? You're using language in a strange way. If I write, "That guy is always angry" that means precisely the same thing as "That guy is continually angry."

I don't think the Greek argument is worth pursuing. As I understand your post, you were saying that the word may not have to do with propitiation at all. I provided evidence which agrees with your point. So there's no point in pursuing an argument where you are disputing evidence which agrees with the point you were wishing to make.

Are you guys sure you know English?
One of the acceptations of "always" is "invariably; without exception". If you say, "It always rains in September", always does not mean "continually", nor "once for all time". It means "invariably".
If I say God always manifests His wrath against sin, I mean He will not let sin go unpunished, even if He postpones the punishment for a time.

Ok, Rosangela, I see that what you said could be taken the way you said. That's not the way one would ordinally take it, IMO. You could ask others what they think if you're interested. Even using the synonyms "invariable" or "without exception" would not be clear, because God does not invariably or without exception manifest His wrath against sin. Just looking at this world, it's clear to see this is the case.

Eventually God's wrath will be manifest against sin. IMO this statement is clear:

quote:

---

He will not let sin go unpunished, even if He postpones the punishment for a time.

---

This does not mean the same thing to me as "God always manifests His wrath against sin" but again would suggest you get other's opinions on this (My experience in issues like this is that my interpretation of English is usually agreed upon by others, for what that's worth.)

Yes, Tom, the main reasons why this happens are, first, because language itself is imperfect, and second, because communication in a language other than one's own may not be so clear as one would wish.

Here's a passage to chew on:

"The Lord does not delight in vengeance, though He executes judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some, He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. Says the prophet Isaiah: 'The Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do his work, His strange work, and bring to pass His act, His strange act.' The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love.
{ST 08-24-82 para. 15}

"Again, the divine message comes to Ezekiel: 'As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live.' The very fact of God's unwillingness to punish sinners shows the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments. And yet to every transgressor of His holy law is addressed that earnest, pleading call, 'Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?'
{ST 08-24-82 para. 16}

"The record of sacred history declares that while God is a God of justice, strict to mark iniquity, and strong to punish the sinner, He is also a God of truth, compassion, and abundant mercy. While He visits judgments upon the transgressors of His law and the enemies of His people, He will protect those who respect His statutes and show kindness to His chosen."
{ST 08-24-82 para. 17}

And another:

"The value of man and the measure of his accountability can be known only by the cross of Calvary. He who presents Himself to the sinner as the One strong to deliver, will prove Himself mighty to execute wrath and judgment upon every unrepenting son of Adam. He who holds the worlds in position, who weighs the hills in scales, and the mountains in a balance, who taketh up the isles as a very little thing, will show Himself mighty to avenge His unrequited mercy and spurned love. Those who flatter themselves that God is too merciful to punish the sinner, have only to look to Calvary to make assurance doubly sure that vengeance will be visited upon every transgressor of His righteous law."
{ST 04-03-84 para. 5}

And a third:

"Jesus, in His explanation of the parable [of the sower; Matthew 13:3-8, 18-30], brings distinctly before His disciples the great difference between the treatment of the wicked and the righteous in that time when men shall be judged for their deeds. Reaching down to the end of time, He corrects the false doctrines of those who rise up to deceive the people. He would teach men that God, who rained a fiery tempest upon the cities of the plains and destroyed them because of the iniquity in their midst, will surely punish the sinner. He holds the destiny of men and nations in His hands, and He will not always be mocked. Jesus Himself declares that there is a greater sin than that which brought destruction upon Sodom and Gomorrah; it is the sin of those who see the Son of God and listen to His teachings, yet turn from His salvation, and reject His offered mercy. But the righteous shall be rewarded with the eternal life."
{2SP 250.2}

God is merciful, yes. But He also will destroy sinners, in His "strange act." The language above from His prophet, in today's English, admits of no other interpretation. It's just as Isaiah wrote so long ago:

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:9.

That's not figurative, it doesn't mean God will allow Satan to do that, or some other such alternative explanation. It means just what it says, just as it plainly reads.

Ye, John Howard chewed an swallowed! But one must be willing to see both types of statements from the Bible and SOP, no prefering one set over another.

Any Bible reader would say that there are tons of statements which are understood as saying God punishes, destroys or liquidates.

Here are a few listings:


Bible

Genesis 6:5-7, 17; 19:24,25; Exodus 4:21; 7;3,13; 32:27; Joshua 10:11; Matthew 22:7

The Spirit of Prophecy

PP 491.2; SDA Bible Commentary 1:117; COL pp 307 to 309

There are many more, naturally.

These are many folk today who read these texts, interpret them according to long-accustomed methods, and are quite satisfied to believe that God does behave as an executioner to those who refuse to obey His laws.

But in doing so they have to ignore several things.
Sadly, I have yet to see anyone address these things here.

Firstly, there are quite a number of statements which say the opposite from what these statements are interpreted to mean.

Secondly, there are the great Ten Commandments principles which are embodied in the constitution of God's government. These I have attempted to address in the "Perfection of the Law" thread.

Thirdly, there are the terrible implications of holding such beliefs about God.

These will be considered in turn as we proceed, but firstly let a list be made of what some would call counter-statements. In reality they are not and cannot be counter-statements for there is no such thing as a contradiction in God's Word.

Here are some examples of such statements:

(Those who wish to skip all heavenly admonitions or proofs that might disturb their settled conclusions can scroll to the bottom and look for the bold *)

"The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy in all His works." "Thy testimonies [commandments or laws] that Thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful." Psalms 145:17; 119:138.

The Lord is righteous and the law is righteous. Therefore God is what the law is. It is the "transcript of His own character," Christ's Object Lessons, 315, and that law declares "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13. Therefore, if it is not in the law to kill, it is not in the character of God to kill.

So, "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, 84.

"God destroys no one." Testimonies 5:120.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest, The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the, sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, 36.

"Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work. We see calamities of every kind and in every degree corning upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest." Testimonies 6:388, 389.

"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it." Testimonies 7:141.

"God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long- deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901.

When Jesus was asked to destroy the Samaritans who had rejected Him, He replied to His disciples, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:55, 56.

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the disposition to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, 487.

"Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." ibid., 759.

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." ibid., 22.

We know that God does nothing that is contrary to the principles of His government. Therefore, He does not use force.

"Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer." The Ministry of Healing, 113.

*

Here is a compilation of statements, emphatic and clear, asserting that God is not an executioner, does not punish, and destroys no one. How unsettlingly confusing!!!

When these and the first set are viewed side by side, there appears no possibility of their being reconcilable.

These apparent contradictions present the Bible student with a problem. For unbelievers and skeptics, it is "solved" by simply discarding faith in the Word of God, charging it and its Author with duplicity and inconsistency. I get this all the time from Muslim "thinkers" and others here in Asia.

Others simply ignore the words which they are unable to understand or do not really desire to accept, while they carefully collect the opposite set, building their faith accordingly.

This was the course adopted by the rabbis and Jews prior to and at the first advent.

In the Old Testament there were many prophetic statements describing both the first and second coming of Christ. One set naturally spoke of His coming in obscurity, shame, ignominy, rejection and to final crucifixion. The other set described a coming in indescribable power, glory and triumph in which all His enemies would be totally annihilated.

To the Jewish mind, especially as it lost the Spirit's illumination, it was impossible to reconcile these seeming contradictions. Their solution was to ignore every statement which spoke of humility and obscurity and to dwell heavily on those which spoke of power and glory.

Once they had embarked on that wrong principle of interpretation, then, the more they studied their Bibles, the more conditioned they became to reject the Saviour when He appeared.

He came exactly as the Scriptures said He would, but not as they had read the prophecies. Therefore, because He did not fulfil the set of prophecies they had gathered, they rejected Him and thus lost their eternal lives.

"It pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief."

"Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the Lord of hosts."

When we say that the penalty or punishment of the law is death, this means that the penalty or punishment of the broken law is God's wrath against sin (since this wrath represents the sure death of the sinner).

"He [Christ] endured our punishment--the wrath of God against transgression." {UL 90.5}

In other words, when you sin, there is no way you can escape God's wrath for that sin:

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men"

The only way to escape this wrath is if someone takes your sins upon him and suffers the wrath of God for these sins in your place. But the only One who could do this was God Himself, who is the Creator of man and the Author of the law which man transgressed. Thus, one of the members of the Godhead became a Mediator and our Substitute.

"As man He [Christ] must suffer the consequences of man's sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression. Christ was now standing in a different attitude from that in which He had ever stood before. His suffering can best be described in the words of the prophet, "Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the Lord of hosts." Zech. 13:7. As the substitute and surety for sinful man, Christ was suffering under divine justice. He saw what justice meant. Hitherto He had been as an intercessor for others; now He longed to have an intercessor for Himself." {DA 686}

"The God of justice did not spare His Son. In the secret place of the Most High a voice was heard: "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts." The whole debt for the transgressor of God's law was demanded from our Mediator. A full atonement was required. How appropriate are the words of Isaiah, "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief." His soul was made "an offering for sin." "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities." Jesus suffered the extreme penalty of the law for our transgressions, and justice was fully satisfied. The law is not abrogated; it has lost not one jot of its force. Instead, it stands forth in holy dignity, Christ's death on the cross testifying to its immutability. Its demands have been met, its authority maintained." {18 MR 335, 336}