"That is not divine justice as defined in the law. That is only purposeless punishment imposed by carnally-minded men who claim to know better than God the true meaning of justice."

Well, how did Jesus describe it?
"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." Luke 17:26-30.
And Rev. 22:11+12. "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Where is the restitution you speak of here?)
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
And Rev. 22:14+15. "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
And Ezekiel 33:11. "Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Proud because of our choice?
Matt. 21:43+44. "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."
Broken, not proud, is the word Jesus used. They can only contemplate with astonishment and wonder the price that was paid to redeem them.
"Rapture unutterable thrills every heart, and each voice is raised in grateful praise: “Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.” Revelation 1:5, 6.—GC 645, 646
I see gratitude rather than pride.

Ellen wrote:


She plainly states Jesus finished what He came to accomplish before He died. Had He died before finishing what He came to accomplish, He would have failed. He defeated the second death. Therefore, He is the rightful owner of sin and death. When the time is right, Jesus will transfer the sins of the saved to Satan, who will perish with them in the lake of fire. Then sin and death will be no more.

But He was dying on the cross when He spoke those words, "It is finished." The good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep,
He did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, which was giving His life for the sheep, which He was doing. I don't feel it necessary to exclude His death from what He had accomplished, because at that point He was dying the death He came to die.

He could have stepped down from the cross after having proclaimed, It is finished, because He had already finished what He came to accomplish. Otherwise, He would have proclaimed, It is finished, after His resurrection. Again, He triumphantly defeated our sin and second death - not the other way around, that is, our sin and second death did not kill Him. If it had, who's to say He didn't die prematurely, thus failing to finish what He needed to accomplish?

"...and with His parting breathe He exclaimed, "It is finished."
I really do find it difficult to read that, and conclude that His dying is excluded from what He was talking about. Wasn't Satan forever and completely cast out when the Son of man was lifted up?
When the angels saw the contrast between what Satan would do and what Christ would do? And isn't it so for us, that when we look on Him Whom we have pierced, then the fountain for cleansing is opened? "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." He chose to accept that, and it did kill Him. He came to give his life for the sheep.
"He could have stepped down from the cross after having proclaimed, "It is finished." Could He? That seems to be a new or foreign sentiment to all that I have read up to now.
Maybe I have missed something.

I see what you mean; however, it seems as clear to me that He finished what He came to accomplish before He died. I believe He came to defeat our sin and second death by meeting it head-on and coming off more than a conqueror. As sole owner of our sin and second death it is His right and responsibility to place them upon the head of Satan, who will perish with them in the lake of fire.

And, yes and amen, to the questions you asked above.

I agree with you on this one!
The whole sacrificial system pointed to the need of THE substitute to shed His blood for the remission of sin and reconciliation.
The statement that Christ could have stepped down before dying and still have "finished" His earthly mission is one I would expect from Tom, but not from Mountain Man???

It is true that Christ did not die before he finished everything He had come to earth to do. "My time is not yet" is a phrase He often used when previously threatened by death.
But when everything else was finished He died, and that death was VERY MUCH part of what He had come to earth to do. Everything else would have been of no avail to our salvation if Christ had come down from the cross without dying.



Jesus bore the penalty of our sins.
Only the Creator can be the substitute and take the penalty for the sins of His created beings.
No other created being;s death could in any way release many from sin.

Christ TASTED the SECOND DEATH.

Heb. 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

On the cross the sins of the world seemed too great for any hope of a resurrection. It seemed His death would be forever due to all the sins upon Him. But against all odds and the utter sense of hopeless, He clung to the promises.

While He TASTED the second death -- the eternal separation which results in eternal death, in one sense it wasn't the actual second death only because He Himself was totally without sin, and death could not hold Him. He arose a victor!

Satan does not bear the penalty of our sins --
He is the one who carries the sins of the redeemed into oblivion.
He dies the second death due to his own corruption, not because of the sins of the redeemed.
Sin in the scriptures is pictured in a concrete manner -- not something that simply floats off as nothing, but is transferred.

It must be transferred from the sinner onto the spotless Lamb of God Who pays the penalty demanded by the law.
But Christ won't carry the sins forever -- in the end they will be burned up, but they must be carried into the fire by someone -- either by the unrepentant sinner himself, or by satan upon whom all forgiven sins will be laid. In that sense the second death erases all sin from the universe, for the second death is eternal!

So do you think He died the first or the second death? The suffering He experienced was that of the second death, but there is no resurrection from the second death.

Dedication, it was the humanity of Christ that died on the cross. Divinity did not die. The reason divinity did not die is due to the fact Jesus never sinned. I guess in one sense the humanity of Jesus was not resurrected for the simple reason Jesus was raised to life with an entirely different human body. His sinful flesh body vanished. In this sense I guess it can be said His sinful flesh died the second death.