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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13644
05/08/05 04:42 AM
05/08/05 04:42 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Mike, here's what I wrote, "You seem to be implying that when one is born again, one is ready for Christ's coming. That's not what SDA's believe. Am I misunderstanding you?"

This is because you wrote, "Can we read about these faulty individuals and conclude that they are converted and born again, advancing from one stage of perfection to another? Can we conclude that, if Jesus had returned then, that they would have been taken to heaven?"

There's a difference between being ready for heaven on the event of one's death, and being ready for Christ's return. This is a foundational point of SDAism. Your statement seems to imply that one is ready for Christ's return if one is born again. At least, that's how I understood this part:

"Can we conclude that, if Jesus had returned then, that they would have been taken to heaven?"

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13645
05/08/05 09:37 AM
05/08/05 09:37 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
Rosangela, the fall of Peter, which elicited the rebuke of Paul, did not indicate Peter possessed an unknown defective trait of character, a trait that he was discovering for the first time.
No, Mike, my point is that the episode of the vision revealed to him that he was still cherishing prejudice in his heart - a defective trait of character cultivated by his upbringing.

Edited to correct spelling

[ May 08, 2005, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13646
05/08/05 06:54 PM
05/08/05 06:54 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Peter is a good choice to consider. There's another defective trait of character, if one wants to use that term, referred to in Galatians, which Peter had had much earlier as well. That is he was not courageous enough to stand up to the young woman who challenged him when Christ was being taken away, and he was also not courageous enough to stand up to the Jews when he left the Gentiles to sit with them, for which he was rebuked by Paul.

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13647
05/08/05 11:16 PM
05/08/05 11:16 PM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
Come on Mountain man: Can you truly say that God has not revealed(through some experience, person, Bible/SOP study, in prayer or ultra-natural event) at least one unchrist-like flaw about you since your rebirth that surprised you because you didn't "know your heart" in minute detail???
No shameful discoveries, apologies to others, admissions of wrong, weaknesses in understanding love,or sorrow for rashness....none???

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13648
05/11/05 02:23 AM
05/11/05 02:23 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The Holy Spirit is my guide, and yours to, and I know when my manners and behaviour are not in harmony with God. And, by the grace of God, I am quick to repent.

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13649
05/11/05 02:27 AM
05/11/05 02:27 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Rosangela, yes, Peter was confused regarding the Gentiles. But God revealed it to him, and then later on he blew it, and Paul rebuked him. But this Paul wrote that we should not keep company with unbelievers or half coverted believers. What did he mean? How does it compare with Peter's attitude toward the unclean before his vision?

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13650
05/10/05 04:32 PM
05/10/05 04:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mike,

I don't know exactly what passages you have in mind, but I believe you mean passages where Paul was referring to a specific kind of association (marriage, partnership, etc.) or to open sinners who weren't interested in changing their lifestyle. This has nothing to do with preaching the gospel to sinners or associating with converted sinners like Cornelius and the gentile brethren mentioned in Galatians.

"This vision conveyed to Peter both reproof and instruction. ... How carefully the Lord worked to overcome the prejudice against the Gentiles that had been so firmly fixed in Peter's mind by his Jewish training! By the vision of the sheet and its contents He sought to divest the apostle's mind of this prejudice and to teach the important truth that in heaven there is no respect of persons; that Jew and Gentile are alike precious in God's sight; that through Christ the heathen may be made partakers of the blessings and privileges of the gospel." {AA 135, 136}

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13651
05/11/05 01:51 AM
05/11/05 01:51 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
Excellent points, Roseangela.

Peter's prejudice was his defect in character AFTER he was already converted!

Peter had to be educated about his attitudes towards Gentiles, or else the Gospel work would suffer horribly.

Peter was a born again racist; God had to snap him outta that, pronto, before Peter's end of probation. Hence the need for a vision right before Cornelius' servant showed up.

But God didn't steal that racist attitude from Peter at rebirth, because God will never break any of His own Commandments (Thou shalt not steal). Peter had to see, confess and willingly give that defect to our High Priest.

That's been my objective for years here Mike!
Neither I nor Tom are suggesting a converted sinner can keep defects and remain in grace!

You said that you asked for forgiveness when Christ pointed out sins to you now. If you are only seeing sinful acts and not an imperfect character in need of a thorough reformation then perhaps it is YOU who are suggesting we keep sinning until He comes!

Is conversion a once-in-a-lifetime event, as all the Sunday-keepers bombard us with, or a process of many conversions?

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13652
05/11/05 01:57 AM
05/11/05 01:57 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
MM: you quoted;
"Among God's professed people are corrupt hearts; but they will be tested and proved. That God who reads the hearts of everyone, will bring to light hidden things of darkness where they are often least suspected, that stumbling blocks which have hindered the progress of truth may be removed, and God have a clean and holy people to declare His statutes and judgments." {1T 332.3}

That sounds just like Peter on the rooftop to me!

"...hidden things of darkness" in God's people are equal to unknown chartacter defects.

It I was unaware that I was a racist, and God brought that to light, wouldn't it be a shame if I cried "I'm born again and have been accepted by God as without defects. So I am not a racist! This is you, the devil or something else, not God convicting me!"

Re: Hidden Character Defects! What? #13653
05/11/05 02:04 AM
05/11/05 02:04 AM
Ikan  Offline
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
The "unknown character defects" or "hidden things of darkness" are hidden from YOU, not God, and frankly rarely hidden from others.

What "hides" them?

Pride, lack of knowledge/experience, habits, fears, cultural norms....and heaps of other things.

Re-formation comes after re-creation.

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