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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #136435
10/04/11 12:15 PM
10/04/11 12:15 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication

There are NO timelines between 1844 and the second coming.
As was discussed before, Ellen White does not say what you just said.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #136436
10/04/11 12:36 PM
10/04/11 12:36 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication

My answers were not to your satisfaction obviously.
You are correct.
I am having a hard time determining what they mean to you.
Could you explain what the terms mean to you without adding anything in between? If you list them concisely and straightforward, I might be able to understand.

Prophetic time -

Symbolic time -

Literal time -

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Green Cochoa] #136437
10/04/11 12:49 PM
10/04/11 12:49 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

The Bible explains itself. In the case which you have asked about, kland, I would note several things:

1) There is a day-for-millennium time formula which is given in the Bible in at least two different texts. Where does this formula apply? It must be given us for a reason, just as they day-year formula is given.
Could you make a comparison of them with the ones for day for a year and show how they are similar?

Quote:

3) The story of Nebuchadnezzar is so strange that it defies reason. It is entirely illogical that Nebuchadnezzar would grow feathers and talons instead of a mane and hooves, or something else more inline with a grass feeder. For him to eat grass while at the same time being depicted more as an eagle is something that should make us take notice and look deeper.
I don't believe the Bible says that. Could you quote the version where you think it says that?

Quote:

When we examine the symbols, we find them all there:
Symbols is what I'm having trouble with. What is a symbol and what are similes, metaphors, and the like? Is there any prophecy which is not symbolic? Are all prophecies required to be symbolic, is there an example of one which isn't?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #136440
10/04/11 02:11 PM
10/04/11 02:11 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication

There are NO timelines between 1844 and the second coming.
As was discussed before, Ellen White does not say what you just said.


If you really look at all the many times EGW addressed the issue of "time" after 1844 and warned people NOT to speculate on that, one can only come to the conclusion that we are NOT to apply the timeline prophecies to any of the last day events between 1844 and the 2nd coming.
It matters not whether you call them "prophetic time" "literal time" or "symbolic time".

I fully realize the arguments that people have made trying to excuse their attempts to place the final events on a time line.
The argument usual goes -- its not "prophetic time" (ie day for year) now it's supposedly "literal time" (no day for year principle) , but all that's doing is trying to use semantics to try and get around the many statements EGW makes that these times all ended by 1844?

They are still taking the PROPHETIC TIMELINES and reapplying them and doing what EGW said not to do.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #136443
10/04/11 03:47 PM
10/04/11 03:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Dedication, I agree with you. Last day events will play out according to the chronology spelled out in the SOP. Some of those events are linked to time. For example:

Quote:
The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. {GC 640.2}

And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood. Then Jesus . . . took His place on the cloud which carried Him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth--a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saints' feet. {Mar 287.7}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." {GC 673.1}

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #136449
10/04/11 04:39 PM
10/04/11 04:39 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

The Bible explains itself. In the case which you have asked about, kland, I would note several things:

1) There is a day-for-millennium time formula which is given in the Bible in at least two different texts. Where does this formula apply? It must be given us for a reason, just as they day-year formula is given.
Could you make a comparison of them with the ones for day for a year and show how they are similar?

Quote:

3) The story of Nebuchadnezzar is so strange that it defies reason. It is entirely illogical that Nebuchadnezzar would grow feathers and talons instead of a mane and hooves, or something else more inline with a grass feeder. For him to eat grass while at the same time being depicted more as an eagle is something that should make us take notice and look deeper.
I don't believe the Bible says that. Could you quote the version where you think it says that?

Quote:

When we examine the symbols, we find them all there:
Symbols is what I'm having trouble with. What is a symbol and what are similes, metaphors, and the like? Is there any prophecy which is not symbolic? Are all prophecies required to be symbolic, is there an example of one which isn't?


Comparison of day-year and day-millennium:

Day-Year --> (See Num. 14:34, Ezek. 4:6.) One day represents a year. Used in a number of prophetic contexts including 40 days/years for spying Canaan/wandering in wilderness; 390 days/years for Ezekiel laying on his left side/probationary time before Israel's judgment; 40 days/years for Ezekiel on right side/probationary time before Judah's judgment.

In the uses given for the 1260, 1290, 1335, there is no other initial representation of the days outside of the specific prophetic mention of them in vision. Daniel does not "do" anything for those durations in terms of days to make a representation of them in years. Nevertheless, the prophetic day-year yardstick is already established before Daniel's prophecies are given him, so it is likely he understood them.

Day-Millennium --> (See Ps. 90:4, 3 Pet. 3:8.) A day is used to represent a millennium. Used in the very longest of time sequences, those spanning the entire "week" of earth's history in sin. Two specific prophecies follow this time formula: Creation Week, and Daniel 4. The creation week prophecy gives an outline of the entire plan of redemption, whereas Daniel 4 is a representation of the period of time in which sin will be permitted on earth as led by Lucifer. These times are, of course, one and the same, but the dual prophecies give the same time from two separate perspectives. The only additional prophecy I know of which uses the day-millennium formula is that given to Adam and Eve in the garden, in which they were told that the day they ate of the fruit, they would die. It is obvious that the only prophetic time formula which would fit is the day-millennium, and it is clear that it was not literal time, as they did not die either that very day, nor in that first year.

Regarding Nebuchadnezzar:

Dan. 4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws].

I'm leaving in the brackets to show where words were supplied. It is obvious that birds do not grow hair, so we logically deduce "feathers." Whereas the nails grow like those of birds, I used the words "talons" because that is the kind an eagle would have, and we see the word "eagle" in the text itself. The KJV translators used the word "claws." Eagles' claws are more properly called talons in modern language.

I will readily admit to not having been quoting in my earlier statement, but I think the differences here are rather petty.

Regarding symbols:

A symbol is any word or concept which is used to represent something else. For example, a "serpent" can frequently represent Satan in the Bible. It is a symbol. A "dove" can represent the Holy Spirit, i.e. it is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. In the case of Daniel 4:33, the principal symbols would include grass and eagles.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 10/04/11 04:40 PM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #136451
10/04/11 04:43 PM
10/04/11 04:43 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication

There are NO timelines between 1844 and the second coming.
As was discussed before, Ellen White does not say what you just said.

Agreed. Ellen White's statements regarding prophetic time after 1844 are given the following premises:

1) The prophecy is on "definite" time.
2) The prophecy regards the second advent.

If one or the other of the above premises proves false, then Mrs. White's statements do not apply. Those were the two conditions required in her statements.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Mountain Man] #136454
10/04/11 06:35 PM
10/04/11 06:35 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Dedication, I agree with you. Last day events will play out according to the chronology spelled out in the SOP. Some of those events are linked to time. For example:



Yes, earth's time continues right up to the second coming, and of course the events happen in connection with our reckoning of hours and days and years. After all 167 years have gone by since 1844. And yes, there will be a number of days from the moment God steps in to deliver His people from the death decree,vindicating them before their enemies, until Jesus appears in the clouds of glory.
But nobody will know how many days that will be prior to the announcement. We can't figure it out by reapplying the timelines, as it's not given to us prior to that time.

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #136455
10/04/11 06:53 PM
10/04/11 06:53 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: dedication

My answers were not to your satisfaction obviously.
You are correct.
I am having a hard time determining what they mean to you.
Could you explain what the terms mean to you without adding anything in between? If you list them concisely and straightforward, I might be able to understand.

Prophetic time -

Symbolic time -

Literal time -



OK you want definitions:

Prophetic time -- is a time prophecy MEANT to be understood in the day/year principle. (1260 days stand for 1260 years etc.)
Prophetic time is NOT to be reinterpreted and renamed as literal time.
Prophetic time is PROPHETIC time.

Symbolic time -- is often used as a synonym of prophetic time but that is NOT actually correct. Symbolic time actually tends to "round" off the time and give it a symbolic meaning which is neither prophetic time or literal time, such as -- 7 is symbolic of completeness, 10 is a number to suggest inclusiveness. Some will turn the 1260 years into simply symbolizing times of trouble no matter what the actual length of time may be.
(I will have to be careful not to interchange those two phrases in the future for they are different)

Literal time is what we live with. Actual time of 24 hour days, 60 minute hours etc.

Last edited by dedication; 10/04/11 07:06 PM. Reason: added paranthesis statement
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: Green Cochoa] #136456
10/04/11 07:04 PM
10/04/11 07:04 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,707
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

1) The prophecy is on "definite" time.
2) The prophecy regards the second advent.

1) Definite time is ascribing a certain definite number of days from one event to the other

2) The prophecy regards ANY of the events of the last days, not just the second coming.

"There will always be false and fanatical movements made by persons in the church who claim to be led of God--those who will run before they are sent and will give day and date for the occurrence of unfulfilled prophecy. The enemy is pleased to have them do this, for their successive failures and leading into false lines cause confusion and unbelief.--2SM 84 (1897). {LDE 35.2}

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