(Sounds like you are saying, it's obvious and everyone just knows)

Can literal time be given in prophecy? I see you emphasized "MEANT". Does that allow for time prophecy MEANT to be understood literally?

Would you object to the definition of prophetic: of or relating to prophecy; predicting or foretelling events (including time events)?

If there were literal time in prophecy, what would you call that regarding relating to prophecy as opposed to time we live with?

Have you ever heard of someone say, "Well, that's very prophetic"? Do you think they had in mind a day for year?

But isn't this trying to place these events into definite time?


One month after Sunday laws are agitated they go into force. From that point there will be three and a half years (1260 days) of "time of trouble". Usually people will then put the end of probation when the 1290/1260 days come to an end. That's when the death decree is announced. Jacob's Time of trouble is usually placed in the last 45 days, (between the end of the 1290 days and end of 1335 days) when God's people realize probation has closed, their agony being both spiritual and physical as the world is organizing to exterminate them. But at the end of those 45 days God delivers them and announces Christ's coming.

That's attempting to placing those events in a definite time frame.
It can be mapped out on a chart --

S.A. -Sunday law Agitated
S.E. -Sunday law Enforced
P.c. -Probation Closed
T.T. -Time of Trouble
J.T.T. - Jacob's time of troubld

<S.A.---------------1335 years--------------JTT---------Delivered>
<S.A.---------------1290 years-----------P.C.>
.........<S.E.-------1260 years-----------P.C.>

30 days.......... 1260 days for TT........45 days.


See -- a neat chart of DEFINITE TIME predictions, based on what you hinted at (though you may differ) and what others have tried to get me to believe.

Do i believe it?
All the events in the chart will take place,yes.
But the time element shouldn't be there. Placing the events in a time line like the one above??? -- NO, I don't believe we should do that. We don't KNOW those times. We don't know how long ANY of those events will last.
Those time lines (1260,1290, 1335) are "Prophetic Time" lines not literal time lines. They were all finished by 1844.

Like I said earlier:
PROPHETIC TIME is not the same as prophecies mentioning time.

PROPHETIC TIME is a phrase that has taken on a meaning all its own. PROPHETIC TIME is when a prophecy gives time in coded language that is to be understood as a day for a year.

An important point to determine when the prophecy is using PROPHETIC TIME, is to take note of the END POINT IN VIEW in these two different kinds of time prophecy.

Prophecies that are not dealing in PROPHETIC TIME, only in actual time, are generally dealing with people who are either contemporaneous or immediately successive to the time of the prophet. They are usually dealing with more local events.

Prophecies using PROPHETIC TIME on the other hand, cover large era's of time.

So there's a difference in how time is involved.
Prophecies speaking about more local time happenings do not use PROPHETIC TIME,
while prophecies using PROPHETIC TIME have the long-range view spanning large era's of time.



"PROPHETIC TIME" is not the same as prophecies mentioning time or having some personal insight into the future.

So time in a prophetic vision is not prophetic time?

I'm sorry, but that just seems really weird.

But aren't we trying to determine when time should be taken literally or prophetically[sic]? If we determine ahead of time that something is to be taken literally or prophetically[sic], then doesn't that remove the whole determination?

Compared another way, if evolutionists have already determined that creation didn't happen, doesn't that remove the whole investigation process?

For, the only way you can say Daniel 4 is not "coded" and only covers local events and Daniel 12 is "coded" and covers large era's of time, is by saying,
Because it is.
That it goes without investigating.

Does that really make logical sense to you?

If one co-mingles prophetic time and symbolic time, one is only left with either creating another term, denying literal time in all prophetic visions, or by saying time in a prophetic vision is not prophetic time....

And tell us about the 1335 time line. The only thing I've heard of those putting it in the past doesn't make sense. Are you able to make sense of it?

Would the 1335 days have to start at the same time as 1290 or 1260? In Revelation 17 and 18, there is mentioned of 1 hour. If the people are going to be blessed for waiting to the end of the 1335 days, I'm seeing it probably would be after the one hour (15 days?) the kings rule.

Thank you, GC, for stating your ideas so succinctly. Such simplicity makes it more believable. Convoluted and complicated explanations make it less believable. So, again, thank you. However, I hope you're wrong about the 1260 being the duration of JTOT.

JTOT begins sometime after the first four plagues make the planet all but uninhabitable. I cannot imagine people living for 1260 days - THREE AND HALF YEARS - on a planet nearly decimated by plagues. Ellen wrote:


The plagues will prevent the planet from producing food. It will be incapable of yielding sustenance. So, how can people live for 3 1/2 years?

A prophetic vision dealing with a time period presents time either in "literal time" or as "prophetic time".




People use it that way often enough, so why would it be"weird"?

How often have you heard someone say something like this--

"We aren't interpreting the 1260, 1335 in 'prophetic time' when we re-apply it again in the future, rather we are using literal time."?



There are guidelines.
One of which I mentioned concerning the "endpoint" or duration of the timeline. Is it covering long era's of time, or is it a localized prediction concerning the immediate future.

Why should it remove "the determination"?






I disagree.
Daniel 4 is a localized prophecy concerning a king that was living at that time. The time period covers the years in his life when he suffers from insanity. Thus it's easy to determine this is a prophecy using literal time.

Daniel 12 is the conclusion to the vision of Daniel 11 which covers a vaste era of time. A careful study shows the time periods mentioned are linked to events spoken of in Daniel 11 (and Daniel 8 and 7)
To wrest Daniel 12 out of the "prophetic time" into "literal time" also destroys the concept of "prophetic time" in Daniel seven and eight.



To be honest -- yes what I wrote makes sense to me, what you wrote does not make sense to me at all.
You seem to be doing exactly what you seem to be condemning -- that is -- you seem to be saying prophetic time, literal time and symbolic time are all one and the same in a vision about prophecy.

But no, each is different, and I gave you the definitions.

PROPHECY can use "literal time" (that is stating time in actual years)
Prophecy can use "prophetic time" (coded by the day for year language)

Actually, I haven't heard Chapter 12 talked about much at all. There seems to be a void, and the chapter seems to be avoided.

Because you already determined it ahead of time.

Green disagrees. He had said it covered a long era and therefore you should use symbolic time. Who is right? How do we determine who is right? And that is what I'm trying to get at. How does someone who has never read Daniel, know how to apply any rules? What are the rules? You said one thing, Green said another, how would he determine which one is right? It seems the only way is to ask you which it is and you'd tell him.

Reading chapter 12, which is after chapter 7 & 8, and at the very end, and no previous mention of 1290 and 1335, and is an epilogue, and is after the question of how long shall all these wonders be (what wonders?), why wouldn't someone who hasn't already been told what it has already been determined, why wouldn't he think it is for the future even if he hasn't been given any rules for deciding if it was symbolic or literal time?

I disagree. Daniel 12 is an epilogue to either at least the vision or the entire book.

No one is and no it doesn't.

Nope, I'm not. I've never said such and am perturbed you would say that. I've always said that prophetic time, that is, time in a prophecy, can be literal or symbolic.

Yes, thanks for explaining that. I guess we don't have the same terms of basis. I think that was why I couldn't understand what you were saying.

All time in prophecy is not prophetic time.
You might want to consider saying that several times and see if it really makes logical sense.
For example, substitute other terms in its place.
All ingredients in bread are not bread ingredients.
All code in a program is not program code.

I guess I look at it as, how could thousands of people live 40 years in a desert with no food nor water? Or Elijah during famine? Which, wasn't that about 3 1/2 years, too?

Personally, I'm not sure I agree that the planet won't produce any food. The quote talks about fields and crops. I just find it hard to believe weeds won't grow. Those who go back to the Genesis diet, and who leave the cities, should find life much better than if they don't follow council.