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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: kland]
#136527
10/07/11 03:15 PM
10/07/11 03:15 PM
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Ellen referred to this time period using the expression "a number of days". When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. . . The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}
Soon there appears in the east a small black cloud, about half the size of a man's hand. It is the cloud which surrounds the Saviour and which seems in the distance to be shrouded in darkness. The people of God know this to be the sign of the Son of man. {GC 640.3}
And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood. Then Jesus . . . took His place on the cloud which carried Him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth--a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saints' feet. {Mar 287.7} Again, the time period between GC 614.1 and 640.3 is referred to as "a number of days". Lots will happen during this time period. Notably, though, there is no mention of God supernaturally feeding the wicked or of them foraging for food among the wild weeds. It's difficult to imagine someone using the expression "a number of days" to describe 3 1/2 years of utter ruin and devastation, the worst the world has ever known.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#136544
10/08/11 02:14 AM
10/08/11 02:14 AM
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Ellen referred to this time period using the expression "a number of days". When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. . . The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}
Soon there appears in the east a small black cloud, about half the size of a man's hand. It is the cloud which surrounds the Saviour and which seems in the distance to be shrouded in darkness. The people of God know this to be the sign of the Son of man. {GC 640.3}
And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood. Then Jesus . . . took His place on the cloud which carried Him to the East, where it first appeared to the saints on earth--a small black cloud which was the sign of the Son of man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the East, which took a number of days, the synagogue of Satan worshipped at the saints' feet. {Mar 287.7} Again, the time period between GC 614.1 and 640.3 is referred to as "a number of days". Lots will happen during this time period. Notably, though, there is no mention of God supernaturally feeding the wicked or of them foraging for food among the wild weeds. It's difficult to imagine someone using the expression "a number of days" to describe 3 1/2 years of utter ruin and devastation, the worst the world has ever known. What do you think will happen in those "a number of days"? All we are told is that the wicked acknowledge that the ones they persecuted are the ones loved by God. This announcement takes place during the seventh plague, after the death decree was overturned by God's deliverance.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: dedication]
#136545
10/08/11 03:07 AM
10/08/11 03:07 AM
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Speaking of the plagues, how much time is involved here? 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
9:7 And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.
9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.
9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
9:12 One woe is past; [and], behold, there come two woes more hereafter. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#136550
10/08/11 02:48 PM
10/08/11 02:48 PM
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What do you think will happen in those "a number of days"? All we are told is that the wicked acknowledge that the ones they persecuted are the ones loved by God. This announcement takes place during the seventh plague, after the death decree was overturned by God's deliverance. True, the wicked worshiping at the saints' feet happens toward the end of this time period. However, according to Ellen, this time period begins the moment Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary and ends when the saints behold Him in the eastern sky as a small, black cloud. In addition to the wicked worshiping at the saint's feet is everything else Ellen described in GC 613-640. Do you agree?
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#136551
10/08/11 03:06 PM
10/08/11 03:06 PM
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Speaking of the plagues, how much time is involved here? 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
9:7 And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.
9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.
9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.
9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.
9:12 One woe is past; [and], behold, there come two woes more hereafter. GC, are you suggesting the trumpets and the plagues will happen simultaneously? The first four plagues, see below, will not allow for people live for five months. The earth will not be able to support human life for more than a number of days. Revelation
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.
16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]; and every living soul died in the sea.
16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. Everyone will be infected with "a noisome and grievous sore." Infection would prevent people from living for more than a number of days. Every "living soul" in the sea will die. All "the rivers and fountains of waters" will become blood. Without potable water, people will die within a number of days. People will be "scorched" with "fire" and "great heat". In addition to their sores, no water to drink, they will also be scorched with fire and great heat. People cannot live for more than a number of days under these conditions. To suggest some of them will live for "five months" seems unrealistic.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Mountain Man]
#136566
10/09/11 05:10 AM
10/09/11 05:10 AM
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What do you think will happen in those "a number of days"? All we are told is that the wicked acknowledge that the ones they persecuted are the ones loved by God. This announcement takes place during the seventh plague, after the death decree was overturned by God's deliverance. True, the wicked worshiping at the saints' feet happens toward the end of this time period. However, according to Ellen, this time period begins the moment Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary and ends when the saints behold Him in the eastern sky as a small, black cloud. In addition to the wicked worshiping at the saint's feet is everything else Ellen described in GC 613-640. Do you agree? Where do you find that? You'll have to show me. Read the CHAPTER in which EGW says the announcement is made. The plagues have fallen. IT'S THE LAST PLAGUE, not the first. The time of Jacob's trouble (which occurs after probation closes) has ENDED before the announcement is made. All that stuff takes place BEFORE the announcement. The only thing that EGW records as happening AFTER the announcement is the wicked acknowledging that God loves those they had tried to kill. Then Jesus comes.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: dedication]
#136567
10/09/11 05:50 AM
10/09/11 05:50 AM
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MM,
I guess it doesn't much matter to me if the five-month period is part of the plagues or not. In either case, I know of few people, if any, trying to place this time period before 1844. Do you know of any such interpretations?
If this is after 1844, as I suspect, the time seems to be rather clearly a prophetic period based on definite time, though not Second-Advent time, and one which would clearly illustrate the point that Mrs. White is referring to Advent time in her declaration.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: dedication]
#136569
10/09/11 06:05 AM
10/09/11 06:05 AM
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Here's the sequence of events in Chapter 39 - 40 of Great Controversy.
1. The last message has been preached, the latter rain has fallen, an angel announces that the work is done, the saints are sealed. p. 614
2. Christ leaves the sanctuary and darkness covers the earth.
Mercy has ended. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.p. 615
3. Those who honor the law of God have been accused of bringing judgments upon the world, a decree will finally be issued against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment. p. 615-616
4. Time of Jacob's trouble commense p. 617-620
5. EGW admonishes people to prepare for this time. p. 621-624
6. Description of the deceptions to precede -- wonders, Satan pretending to be Christ. p. 625- 626
7. EGW gets back to describing the beginnings of the death decree #3 which signals the time of Jacob's trouble #4.
The people of God will flee from the cities and villages and associate together in companies, dwelling in the most desolate and solitary places. p. 627
8. Many are imprisoned. As probation closes, the plagues begin. p. 628
9. Describes first 4 plagues p. 629
10. God's people while suffering privation do not suffer the plagues p. 630
11. God's people seem to be at the mercy of their persecuters and it appears they will soon all be killed. p. 631
12. Angels guard God's people, even though some persecuters come before the date of the death decree and try to kill God's people the angel's stop them. p. 632
13. The Lord gives encouragement to His people -p. 633
14. Help will come p. 634-5
15. The day of the death decree arrives. The wicked rush upon God's people with jeering and murderous intent. p. 636
16. Black clouds -- a rainbow -- a voice "Look up" They see the rainbow as token of their deliverance. The wicked arrested in their intentions. Everything in nature seems turned out of its course p. 637
17. The seventh plague described.
The special resurrection takes place. p. 638
18. terrific roar of thunder, voices, mysterious and awful, declare the doom of the wicked. a star whose brilliancy is increased fourfold speaks hope to the faithful p. 639
19. Faithful rejoice.
A hand holding commandments appear in sky
Wicked see they have been fighting God's authority p. 640
20. The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. p. 641
21. Then is seen the small black cloud which is the sign of His coming p.641
So we see that announcement is not made until the VERY END!
After the seventh plague!
Yes, there are other quotes that do not include all these details, but when we place those quotes with the events in the outline SHE GIVES in Great Controversy we can see where they fit.
It takes a number of days for the "cloud" to travel from the heavens to earth.
Obviously the "synogogue of satan" was not worshipping at the feet of the saints until point #19 is reached.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#136570
10/09/11 06:25 AM
10/09/11 06:25 AM
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The pioneers placed all six trumpets prior to 1844.
That includes the five month prophecy.
Trumpets five and six show the rise and devastation of the muslim nations upon the Christian nations.
This makes a lot of sense as we see the muslims
the king of the south -- showing up again shortly before probation closes in Daniel 11:40-45, pushing against the king of the north who uses it as an excuse to set up his authority over the nations.
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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844
[Re: kland]
#136571
10/09/11 08:02 AM
10/09/11 08:02 AM
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Actually, I haven't heard Chapter 12 talked about much at all. There seems to be a void, and the chapter seems to be avoided. That hasn't been my experience.
Daniel 4 is a localized prophecy concerning a king that was living at that time. The time period covers the years in his life when he suffers from insanity. Thus it's easy to determine this is a prophecy using literal time.
Green disagrees. He had said it covered a long era and therefore you should use symbolic time. Who is right? How do we determine who is right? Go read the chapter yourself. A careful study of Daniel 12 shows the time periods mentioned are linked to events spoken of in Daniel 11 (and Daniel 8 and 7)
To wrest Daniel 12 out of the "prophetic time" into "literal time" also destroys the concept of "prophetic time" in Daniel seven and eight.
No one is and no it doesn't. Yes, it does. Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered. So you see the same event is spoken of in each of those chapters. The question is asked: Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long the vision, the daily, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? The answer -- 2300 evening and mornings -- answers the "how long the vision" part of the question. The vision covers a 2300 year period. The answer as to how long the daily and transgression of desolation trods down the sanctuary is given in Daniel 12 as 1290 days or 1290 years. So from this we see that 1290 years are a subset of the 2300 years. All time in prophecy is not prophetic time. You might want to consider saying that several times and see if it really makes logical sense. For example, substitute other terms in its place. All ingredients in bread are not bread ingredients. Well, let's look at how EGW used the term "prophetic time". "prophetic time closed in 1844, and Jesus entered the most holy place to cleanse the sanctuary at the ending of the days." EW 244
"The people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time [Rev. 10:4-6], reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844.--7BC 971 (1900).
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {7BC 971.7} She clearly says there is no "prophetic time" after 1844.
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