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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13664
08/11/05 02:31 AM
08/11/05 02:31 AM
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OP
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I lost track of this thread. I’m glad it has been brought back up.
Rosangela, do you still believe, after all the studying we have been doing on other threads, that Jesus did not inherit the same sinful flesh nature we inherit? We both agree He did not inherit a carnal mind, and that He never cherished an unholy thought and never acted out, either in word or deed, the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by His fallen nature, and that, as such, He never cultivated or developed sinful traits of character. But, do you believe Jesus never inherited the same propensities to sin that born again believers (i.e., as opposed to unconverted people) must recognize and resist on a daily basis?
Avalee, yes, even our thoughts must, and may, praise the Lord, be under the controlling influence of Jesus, under the control of a sanctified mind and will. In fact, as you know, if our thoughts are right then our words and behaviour will be right. “If the thoughts are right, the words will be right.” (RC 163) “If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character.” (HP 164) “The Christian brings all his passions under control to God. Then if the thoughts are brought into captivity to Jesus Christ, there is a healthful growth in beauty and grace of character.” (TMK 147)
2 Corinthians
10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2MCP
No one but yourself can control your thoughts. In the struggle to reach the highest standard, success or failure will depend much upon the character and the manner in which the thoughts are disciplined. If the thoughts are well girded, as God directs they shall be each day, they will be upon those subjects that will help us to greater devotion. If the thoughts are right, then as a result the words will be right; the actions will be of that character to bring gladness and comfort and rest to souls. {2MCP 655.3}
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13665
08/10/05 03:19 PM
08/10/05 03:19 PM
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Mark, as you know, context is everything. So, here’s the context of the verse you quoted:
1 John
1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
It is generally believed that John is here addressing the Gnostics of Alexandria who advocated a distinction between deeds done in the flesh and deeds done in the spirit. According to their philosophy, which is based on Greek mysticism, we are not guilty of the sins we commit in the flesh, that God only holds us accountable for the deeds done in the spirit. And, in their opinion, it requires flesh to commit a sin, and since the spirit is not flesh the spirit cannot sin. Thus, they divorce flesh and spirit, as if they exist independent of one another.
When John came along preaching rebirth and repentance these Gnostics had a hard time grasping the concept of sin and guilt. They were taught by the Greeks to believe they are sinless because they are not in the flesh but in the spirit, and, since the gods are worshipped in spirit, sin and guilt and repentance cannot apply to them. Thus, in response to John’s message they declared, "'We have not sinned… we have no sin.' Consequently, we have no reason to repent."
But John made it clear that all have sinned and that all must repent. However, he did not intend for us to take his words to mean the blood of Jesus cannot “cleanse us from all sin” or that it cannot “cleanse us from all unrighteousness” or that it is impossible for us to go and “sin not”. We come to Jesus sinners full of sin, but He does not leave us in that condition. Instead, He cleanses us and sets us free, and then He tells us to "go, and sin no more." At that precise moment we are without sin, we have no known sin, no hidden moral imperfections or uncrucified character defects. Plus, our past sins have been forgiven and forsaken and God considers us to be sinless.
Rebirth, however, does not rob us of our ability to sin. We are free to sin, but sinning is not inevitable. We can, by the grace of God, choose not to sin. Nevertheless, “if any man sin” repentance and restoration is available through the blood and mediation of Jesus Christ. Notice, however, that he did not say “when men sin”, as if sinning is inevitable and unavoidable. Also, the phrase, “if we keep his commandments”, implies, first of all, that commandment keeping is possible, and, secondly, that obedience is the fruit of faith, the evidence that we are saved.
Anyhow, that's what make sense to me. What does 1 John 1:8 mean to you?
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13666
08/10/05 05:40 PM
08/10/05 05:40 PM
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quote:
At that precise moment we are without sin, we have no known sin, no hidden moral imperfections or uncrucified character defects.
This is mixing two different things together. One is known sin. The other is hidden moral imperfections. What does this mean? If "moral" implies "known" then your statement is meaningless, as it would be equivalent to saying we have no hidden known imperfections, or to put it another way, we have no unknown known imperfections. If "moral" means something contrary to God's law, then the statement is obviously false, since someone like Luther, for example, had the hidden moral imperfection of not keeping the Sabbath.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13667
08/10/05 07:01 PM
08/10/05 07:01 PM
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quote:
But, do you believe Jesus never inherited the same propensities to sin that born again believers (i.e., as opposed to unconverted people) must recognize and resist on a daily basis?
Mike,
As I've said in the other thread, there are human passions and evil/sinful passions.
Evil/sinful passions = evil/sinful propensities = pride, covetousness, malice, vanity, etc.
Yes, I still believe Jesus didn't possess these.
Human passions = physical/bodily appetites and passions, and passions not evil in themselves, like anger and ambition.
Jesus, as all human beings, possessed these.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13668
08/10/05 09:30 PM
08/10/05 09:30 PM
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quote:
Evil/sinful passions = evil/sinful propensities = pride, covetousness, malice, vanity, etc.
Yes, I still believe Jesus didn't possess these.
Human passions = physical/bodily appetites and passions, and passions not evil in themselves, like anger and ambition.
Jesus, as all human beings, possessed these.
I somehow missed this from the other thread. This is a useful list.
To possess the first list would imply actual participation in sin, wouldn't it? That's what it would sound like to me, at any rate. I would never say Christ possessed pride, as that sounds to me like saying He committed sin. OTOH Christ took part of the same flesh we have, and had whatever genetic inclinations that flesh has. So if Mary (or her ancestors) had a genetic inclination to pride, for example, then Christ would have had that same genetic inclination; however, Christ never yielded to that inclination. He always had the "mind of Christ", which was one of humility and submission to His Father's will.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13669
08/10/05 09:37 PM
08/10/05 09:37 PM
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To keep us focused, please, if we bring in thoughts on the human nature of Christ, they should relate in some way to this thread which is on the character of converted believers.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13670
08/10/05 09:44 PM
08/10/05 09:44 PM
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Before I say more, MM, about that text in 1 John I quoted, let me ask you what you think of this one as well: quote:
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Philipians 3:12
I’ll quote the context too for easy reference:
quote:
3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
3:19 Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Philipians
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13671
08/10/05 09:53 PM
08/10/05 09:53 PM
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I noticed in the verse right after my main quote there is an interesting statement - "forgetting those things that are behind." Since our theology in one area tends to integrate with others, maybe you could also comment on your views of 'memory purging/correction' - if you think it has a bearing.
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13672
08/11/05 10:47 AM
08/11/05 10:47 AM
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Here is one more passage, MM: The passage indicates that the members of the early church had a work to do in overcoming. This is the same work addressed seven times to the seven churches – ‘to him that overcometh. . .’ If the church was already perfect at conversion what would it need to overcome? Or, why would God chasten and scourge people who are perfect? Verse 12:6 below. Why would we be called lame if we are perfect? Verse 12:13. Biblical perfection involves more than not consciously sinning by doing evil. The more crucial aspect of perfection is sacrificial service to God and mankind. There are many Christians who loose out on the best aspects of life by living morally but not sacrificially. Those who are on the right hand of Christ when the sheep are separated are the ones who loved their fellow man. They are perfect within the meaning of the final verses below – ‘perfect in every good work’. Can we say we are perfect at conversion when we may have hardly begun to minister unselfishly to others? quote:
12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith, . . .
12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. . . .
12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. . . .
13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews
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Re: Hidden Character Defects! What?
#13673
08/11/05 04:23 PM
08/11/05 04:23 PM
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OP
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Tom, do you consider sins of ignorance moral imperfections? I don’t. A moral sin is when someone wilfully violates their conscience or convictions. Luther did not wilfully break the Sabbath, therefore, he wasn’t guilty of a moral imperfection, at least, not as it pertained to the Sabbath.
Rosangela, thank you for the clarification. And, as you know, I do not agree. I believe Jesus possessed the same lower nature, the same appetites and passions that born again believers possess. There is a huge difference, of course, between converted and unconverted people as it relates to the lower nature. The difference has to do with control. In born again believers, who actively and aggressively partake of the divine nature, the appetites and passions are under the control of a sanctified mind and will. In spite of the unholy clamorings produced by their lower nature, they develop sinless traits of character. Thus it was in Jesus’ case.
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