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Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136615
10/10/11 02:29 AM
10/10/11 02:29 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

No. EGW is clear - God gave a character to Adam; God created Adam with a character similar to His.

God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. {AG 344.3}

We are born with a character baggage. This character we are born with begins then to be developed.

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136617
10/10/11 02:44 AM
10/10/11 02:44 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

Character is made up of thoughts and feelings. These originate the choices and conduct and are, at the same time, influenced by them.

If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {HP 164.2}

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: asygo] #136621
10/10/11 03:05 AM
10/10/11 03:05 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

A screaming newborn has a character.

Every parent knows this by experience.


And every careful student of the Bible & SOP can learn this by study - without the pitfalls of 'experience by experimentation.'

IOW, we do not require experience to make informed decisions.

God can and will teach us His appointed way.

_____________________________

Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: gordonb1] #136630
10/10/11 06:01 AM
10/10/11 06:01 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

A screaming newborn has a character.

Every parent knows this by experience.

And every careful student of the Bible & SOP can learn this by study - without the pitfalls of 'experience by experimentation.'

IOW, we do not require experience to make informed decisions.

God can and will teach us His appointed way.

Are you advocating intellectual awareness sufficient to prevent any fall? A&E did they have intellectual awareness before their fall?

Oh yes, it's all Eve's fault, not Adam's. She was too weak to handle this alone, if she only stayed close to Adam, right? (Of course we won't mention about the fact that God provide an unhedge tree for them to fall into, plus providing a tree promoter -- a master mind that recently succeeded to make 1/3 of strong angelic minds fall. Let's keep these facts hidden and out of the discussion. eek)


Blessings
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136633
10/10/11 06:26 AM
10/10/11 06:26 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Parents give the stamp of character to their children. Children that are born of these parents inherit qualities of mind from them which are of a low and base order. Satan nourishes anything tending to corruption. {SA 174.2}

Stamp of character = qualities of mind.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela] #136634
10/10/11 06:28 AM
10/10/11 06:28 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
God’s character is in-printed in every cells of our body by continually demonstrating the selflessness in serving one another. The cells are in harmony with each other. They know God’s voice(spirit) when He activates the necessary genes in the appointed time orchestrating every individual cells in their task to keep the body alive.

It is our mind/brain wirering/heart that is out of harmony with the body and is totally selfish, often disconnected with others around us, and unable to hear God’s voice.

At birth it is well proven scientifically that a baby does inherit also the mind wirering pattern of their parents to some extend. I do not know how much and I think that’s hard to quantify, however, they do know that it is inherited seeing many studies showing this. One scientist has shown this via training fruit flies tricks which this knowledge(a wirering) is pass down to the next generation which makes them faster to learn the trick and develop it further in the next generation, and so on and so forth. So in another word, tricks, bad habits, fears, etc… are past down.


Blessings
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Mountain Man] #136635
10/10/11 06:34 AM
10/10/11 06:34 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
When we study what Ellen wrote about the topic of character, I believe it is clear she taught character is the result of repetitious choices and conduct.

Where do these "choices and conduct" come from? Are they random and beyond the person's control? Or is there something in a person that drives him to make the choices he makes?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
We inherit traits and tendencies, with which we cultivate character, but we do not inherit character.

Then what do you make of EGW's statement that character can be bequeathed?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
As you know, Ellen makes it clear character will, during judgment, determine our eternal destiny. With this in mind, do you believe people will be judged based on the "character" they inherited?

Nobody will be judged by the character they inherited, as far as I know.

Even so, we are told that we inherit deformed characters. Therefore, our inheritance must not be the determining factor in salvation, despite what is commonly taught by both extreme liberals and extreme conservatives.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did John the Baptist, who was "filled with the Holy Ghost" from birth, inherit a holy character?

No. His parents were sinners.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Rosangela] #136636
10/10/11 06:37 AM
10/10/11 06:37 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If the thoughts are wrong, the feelings will be wrong; and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {HP 164.2}

That's true. (As if I was going to disagree with the SOP. smile )

If we are born without character, then either the thoughts or the feelings or both are missing. I know that there are those who teach that babies do not have thoughts or feelings. But that's not us.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: gordonb1] #136637
10/10/11 06:43 AM
10/10/11 06:43 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

A screaming newborn has a character.

Every parent knows this by experience.


And every careful student of the Bible & SOP can learn this by study - without the pitfalls of 'experience by experimentation.'

IOW, we do not require experience to make informed decisions.

God can and will teach us His appointed way.

That's true. But I have encountered many people who have definite theories about what children are or are not, without the benefit of any close dealings with children. One such person, when I asked her if she has any children, said that she does not have any, but teaches the Juniors SS class at church. It is astounding how much some people think they know about parenting, without ever being a parent.

The SOP tells us that even Enoch grew closer to God after he had a child. Even the closest knowledge of God can be enhanced by experiencing the doctrines first-hand.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection" ... [Re: Elle] #136638
10/10/11 06:54 AM
10/10/11 06:54 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Are you advocating intellectual awareness sufficient to prevent any fall? A&E did they have intellectual awareness before their fall?

I'll let Gordon answer for himself, but.....

Babies have very little intellectual awareness in the sense that adults have them. Or maybe a more accurate description is that they lack the information to make wise choices. Coupled with natural selfishness, this ignorance usually spells trouble, and many sleepless nights. "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child."

As for A&E, they were adults, and given clear instructions: don't eat the fruit of that tree. It was certainly well within their abilities to keep from falling. Just don't go near the dangerous tree!

The fact that there was no physical hedge around the tree does not diminish the fact that God placed a "meta-hedge" by instructing them. The test then became one of faith in God. There was neither a physical barrier to keep them away from the tree, nor a physical force that drew them to the tree. It all depended on their choice. But if they trusted God, they would keep away and be safe.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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