Mike, I didn't see a response to this, although I've asked a couple of times. I'm interested in your thinking on this, thanks. (following is repost)
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Mike, here's what I wrote, "You seem to be implying that when one is born again, one is ready for Christ's coming. That's not what SDA's believe. Am I misunderstanding you?"

This is because you wrote, "Can we read about these faulty individuals and conclude that they are converted and born again, advancing from one stage of perfection to another? Can we conclude that, if Jesus had returned then, that they would have been taken to heaven?"

There's a difference between being ready for heaven on the event of one's death, and being ready for Christ's return. This is a foundational point of SDAism. Your statement seems to imply that one is ready for Christ's return if one is born again. At least, that's how I understood this part:

"Can we conclude that, if Jesus had returned then, that they would have been taken to heaven?"

Below are what I can find about MM's stand on Salvation etc.

I quote this to save other's time and energy and to see if MM still holds these ideas.

MM's answers are bolded:


1. In general, how do you think your view differs from a conventional Adventist view? What would you consider a conventional Adventist view to be?

The conventional SDA view suggests we are born again and then we spend the rest of our lives discovering and overcoming our unknown moral imperfections. My view suggests we crucify our moral imperfections before we are born again.

2. How do you define "morally perfect"?

Free from moral imperfections or defective traits of character.


3. How do you define "dead to sin"?

We do not and cannot commit a known sin while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

4. How do you define "free from moral imperfections"?

Most of us are born with an inherent sense of what is morally right and wrong. Being free from moral imperfections means we do not violate our convictions and conscience.

5. What do you mean by "crucify" our sinful defects?

Confess and forsake them.

6. Why does imitating Jesus not include discovering unknown defective traits of character?

Because Jesus did not possess them to discover and overcome.

7. Could you expand on this statement: "To commit a known sin we must resurrect, as it were, the mind of the old man. But the free gift of repentance restores the relationship our sin severs."

We cannot commit a known sin in the mind of the new man, therefore we must resurrect the mind of our old man, which died and was buried when we were born again. When we commit a known sin we disconnect from Jesus, but repentance gives God the right to pardon and restore us to the mind of the new man. The mind of the old man dies and is buried again.

Yes, the above summary of the view I favor is correct. In addition to these insights, it is also helpful to define the differences between inherited and cultivated defects and imperfections. I do not believe we are held accountable for the sinful propensities we inherit. Instead, I believe we are held accountable for the ones we cultivate ourselves, the ones we convert into character. The uncultivated tendencies do not count as character defects.

I believe we will be held accountable for our inherited sinful traits if we do not overcome them.

quote:

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Amazing Grace
Page 254

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart.

The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel anyone to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer.

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How wonderful it is that we have the promise that none need despair over their inherited sinful ways. However when we are convicted of our inherited sinful ways we are to repent and confess. Praise God for His promises to forgive.

quote:

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Our High Calling
Page 92

None need despair because of the inherited tendencies to evil, but when the Spirit of God convicts of sin, the wrongdoer must repent and confess and forsake the evil. Faithful sentinels are on guard to direct souls in right paths.

Either the evil angels or the angels of God are controlling the minds of men. Our minds are given to the control of God, or to the control of the powers of darkness; and it will be well for us to inquire where we are standing today--whether under the bloodstained banner of Prince Emmanuel, or under the black banner of the powers of darkness.

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To be clothed in white raiment and in order not to be blotted out of the book of life this says we are not only to overcome our cultivated tendencies but our inherited tendencies. Isn't God a wonderful helper? I think it is so wonderful that God has given us all this help overcome ALL sin.

quote:

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"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh his own inherited and cultivated tendencies), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life; but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels" [Rev. 3:4, 5]. {19MR 384.1}

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Amen, Avalee! No spot or wrinkle can be over-looked, therefore He must do the looking for us, as we have a nasty habit of justifying ourselves.
It is a all too self-centered tendency not to expose our souls, even to God. Therein lies the danger, I feel, in any claim of purity from defects of any kind before being given a new heart at rebirth.

There's a great sermon by Dennis Priebe that touches on a lot of these things, called "What Is Sin?", at

http://www.advent-hope.org/?module=audio&func=display&aid=142

I especially like the way he differentiates between "evil" and "guilt," and between "temptation" and "sin."

If we are guilty of sinning because we inherit the fallen propensities of our parents, then Jesus, who also inherited them, was guilty of sinning. Obviously, therefore, we are not guilty of sinning simply because we inherited sinful nature. We are not guilty until we act out the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by sinful nature. If we habitually do this we cultivate sinful character, and it is character that determines our eternal reward in judgment.

Mike,

When Ellen White says that Jesus had no propensities to sin, she obviously refers to both inherited and cultivated propensities.

We will be held accountable for even our evil thoughts, not just acting them out.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This scripture here makes it very plain that we can committ sin also by our evil thoughts.

I haven't read the whole thread through, but about a week ago I was reading 1 John and I thought of you MM. I've been meaning to ask you since then, how does this passage fit into your understanding of conversion and perfection -


"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8.