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Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: dedication] #136743
10/11/11 10:51 PM
10/11/11 10:51 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Letter 398 (1906) " In Jesus is our life derived. In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life. In us there is a streamlet from the fountain of life. In Him is the fountain of life."


Show me from scriptures the above.


Blessings
Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Elle] #136747
10/12/11 12:12 AM
10/12/11 12:12 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: dedication
DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Letter 398 (1906) " In Jesus is our life derived. In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life. In us there is a streamlet from the fountain of life. In Him is the fountain of life."


Show me from scriptures the above.


Here are some scriptures for that.

Ellen WhiteHoly Bible
DA 531 "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Yea, before the day was I am... (Isaiah 43:10-11,13)
In Jesus is our life derived.For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. (Psalm 36:9)

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Revelation 21:6)

In Him is life, that is original, unborrowed, underived life.Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

...Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1:17-18)

In Him is the fountain of life.Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Rosangela] #136751
10/12/11 01:34 AM
10/12/11 01:34 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
This doesn’t mean He originated self-existance. It was given to Him by the Father

???
Self-existence means both that your life wasn't originated by anyone and that it isn't preserved by anyone.

Rosangela, you're talking like a trinitarian: we as a church didn't used to talk like that or believe like that, as trinitarianism has to be assumed from the Bible as it is not found in it; hence, our church used to be non-trinitarian, formally till 1980 but at least till Ellen White died and all who agreed with her eventually died, too.

Jn 5:26 cannot refer to Christ's incarnation, since he pre-existed as God's Son, as a divine person: nevertheless, as God's Son - even before Bethlehem - his, too, is the fulness of the Godhead. Why specify anything further to try to prove the point when nothing further except a trinitarian formula of "musts" can be named. Yes, trinitarian definitions can be unbiblical, whether untrue or simply delving into the unknown and unknowable.

The essence of the Godhead isn't community or eternity or self-existence: it's holiness, with aspects that belong to that.

Last edited by Colin; 10/12/11 01:46 AM.
Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Green Cochoa] #136753
10/12/11 06:39 AM
10/12/11 06:39 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Tx GC, Sorry but I cannot comment now, nor post for the next two weeks.


Blessings
Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Colin] #136754
10/12/11 11:48 AM
10/12/11 11:48 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Self-existence means both that your life wasn't originated by anyone and that it isn't preserved by anyone.

Rosangela, you're talking like a trinitarian

Colin, I'm talking about the meaning of a word according to the dictionary, both now and at Ellen White's time. And I'm talking about an attribute of God: God is not originated by anyone. If any being is originated by anyone, this being cannot be called God.

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Colin] #136755
10/12/11 12:00 PM
10/12/11 12:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Jn 5:26 cannot refer to Christ's incarnation

I disagree, since Christ was speaking specifically of His work as the Messiah. The meaning is that, even as a human being, Christ had life in Himself; He gave life to His own body. The gospel of John speaks clearly about that in several passages.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man."

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Colin] #136756
10/12/11 12:06 PM
10/12/11 12:06 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
The essence of the Godhead isn't community or eternity or self-existence: it's holiness, with aspects that belong to that.

If that was the case, the holy angels could belong to the Godhead.

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.--The Signs of the Times, Nov. 27, 1893, p. 54.


Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Rosangela] #136757
10/12/11 02:22 PM
10/12/11 02:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal presence, and if Jesus isn't eternal in the same sense the Father is, well, then, that means the Father existed for an eternity by Himself. And, since Jesus created everything, that means the Father existed for an eternity all by Himself in a void and empty universe. I prefer to believe the Father, Son, and Spirit have cohabited for eternity, which I also happen to believe is the truth. The idea the Father existed all alone in a universe devoid of anything is too depressing to think about.

Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Rosangela] #136781
10/13/11 01:07 AM
10/13/11 01:07 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Jn 5:26 cannot refer to Christ's incarnation

I disagree, since Christ was speaking specifically of His work as the Messiah. The meaning is that, even as a human being, Christ had life in Himself; He gave life to His own body. The gospel of John speaks clearly about that in several passages.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man."

Okay, but also in his pre-existence. Jn 3:16 says God gave his pre-existing, begotten Son, and Phil 2:6 refers to that pre-existence, while the Old Testament also knows of the Son of God and speaks reverently and in awe of him. That calls for faith, not trinitarian formulas.

As for holy angels, who allowed them to be equal to their holy Creator??? Please don't be facetious. smile

On self-existence, of course he's divine: Jn 1:1 and Ps 2:7,12, and other texts. Jesus' begotten Sonship is a mystery; yet, it confirms his divinity rather than denying it, as he is God of God. It may begin his existence as the Son of God, but it continues his deity as the Word of God.

Only with the trinitarian thinking in our church, really the latter half of the 20th century, the co-existence theory of Christ's divine pre-existence arose. Being the begotten Son of God from "the days of eternity" (NOT just Adventists teach this) doesn't limit his deity, just his existence as the Son among his other pre-existent identities, such as Michael, the Word, which he is from the beginning.

Last edited by Colin; 10/13/11 01:17 AM.
Re: The Father created Jesus, then later promoted Him to divinity? [Re: Colin] #136783
10/13/11 02:04 AM
10/13/11 02:04 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,705
Canada
Originally Posted By: Colin
Originally Posted By: Rosangela

Self-existence means both that your life wasn't originated by anyone and that it isn't preserved by anyone.

Rosangela, you're talking like a trinitarian: we as a church didn't used to talk like that or believe like that,


Seems to me Rosangela is talking about this the same as EGW.

Quote:
DA 530 Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.

"In him [Christ] was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. ... the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. Marnatha 294

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